KZ HORN BOW IN URALSK MUSEUM!

This is where we discuss the bows, arrows, quivers and other hardware used in Asian archery.
Vonegelut
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Post by Vonegelut » Wed Jan 11, 2012 7:03 am

jack farrell wrote:Bede and all. Yes, I have also read that tamarisk was used for bow making. In a much younger time I also made some bows from willow. There is a great number of tamarisks growing in the southwest USA where they are an introduced species, maybe from Australia. They can grow to an immense size in the desert where there is just a little water, like a ditch or arroyo.

A little investigation shows that there are many types of tamarisk. I have used them successfully for arrow making. But the type here is soft like poplar or willow. It can be made into a child's bow but not a serious bow, certainly not a composite. Why one would report that it was used this way is beyond me. Maybe because in Xinjiang it is one of the few trees.

One cannot go down to the river and find the birch bark used on a Scythian bow. Those Siberian ibex are not found in the desert. Most Scythians had to travel to obtain bronze points. And so there is no surprise that the material for bow cores came from mountain sides and not from tamarisks or willows.

Those and other soft woods would make a youngster's stone bow, especially in the dry environment. There is yet another type of bow and arrows found not infrequently in Xinjiang collections, bows and arrows which are fetishes or more accurately, oracles. These were not used in a classic sense to shoot but were used to divine. There are also other oracles not uncommon from the bronze age and I think, iron age. collections.
Ok. I think Kazakhs made the arrows from tamarick too. I shall try mine bows with - Acer Tataricum. :)
jack farrell
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Post by jack farrell » Wed Jan 11, 2012 11:29 am

There were bows and arrows from Xinjiang exhibited in Germany some few years ago, maybe in Mannheim? This was my source picture for the Subeixi bow. Exhibit number 9 looks like such a bow for divining. I so wish I had a translation for the illustration. Arrows, both functional and for divining are also in the exhibit. I did not find a link but will look further.
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Uli
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Post by Uli » Wed Jan 11, 2012 3:45 pm

translation from German ? any time just post the text :-)

on soft wood: Arab archery quotes soft poplar as a famous bow wood in Persia ?
jack farrell
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Post by jack farrell » Thu Jan 12, 2012 12:24 am

Uli; Some text missing. Can send off for more if necessary. Poplar for a self bow? They do not have yew in Persia.
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Post by Amarutu » Thu Jan 12, 2012 1:48 pm

the text in english:

"This miniaturebow is most likely a funeral gift. The bowstring, even nocked on one tip is half ripped apart. In general, this type of miniaturebow belongts to the longbows, as they were used for hunting and in warfare. Making miniatures from everyday objects has practical uses, for exaple these objects for everyday use were too sophisticated in production making them far too expensive. Another reason for miniatures, as they were found over and over in all epochs are magical religious practices. "
jack farrell
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Post by jack farrell » Thu Jan 12, 2012 8:39 pm

Thanks. Nice smooth translation.

And leave it to the German curators in Mannheim to understand this concept. I snail mailed a paper to the head archaeologist who sponsored the Penn show but when I went to the Silk Road symposium, my ideas about some bows and arrows not being functional met with not an iota of interest, like one would react to a derranged person. (The same attitude will meet you if you should inform a curator that a display bow is strung backwards.)

However, Fitzhugh does explain divination very well among the Siberians in Crossroads of the Continents.

The concept does not mesh well with modern scientific thought, though it is fact. Shamanism preceded all the world's known religions.

Such a bow, such an arrow can be made of any material and take any form and has nothing to do with composite construction (our topic).
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Uli
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Post by Uli » Fri Jan 13, 2012 8:36 pm

yep, composite :wink: :
Faris&Elmer translated the "nab" wood used for flight bows as
- white poplar ? (page 117 note 58 )
:?
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Post by jack farrell » Sat Jan 14, 2012 2:43 pm

Uli; You did well to find this reference.

"In a composite bow the central lamellar base need not necessarily made of a variety of wood that would be suitable for self bows as the horn and sinew provide the real strength and the wood serves for little more than a frame for them to be glued to. So, if nab' should really be white poplar..."

Actually we now know, through experimentation, that the opposite is true; that the core of a composite is made from the same woods as self bows but not even all of those will be a successful material.

I would enjoy going to Xinjaing, collecting their tamarisk, and trying some bow making experiments. But even making a successful bow of that material does not prove that it was used, only that it could be.

I do not believe that tamarisk is useful for composite bow making, nor that Farris and Elmer's nab' wood is white poplar.
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Post by Dusan » Sat Jan 14, 2012 5:45 pm

:idea:
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Uli
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Post by Uli » Sun Jan 15, 2012 2:47 pm

:idea: :D
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Post by Dusan » Sun Jan 15, 2012 3:51 pm

:idea: - this mean - i agree vith Jack . :wink:
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Uli
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Post by Uli » Mon Jan 16, 2012 7:33 pm

:idea:

Hammer-Purgstall's "On Bow and Arrow" contains some interesting passages concerning Neba wood (=Nab?) and other woods, used by arabs and persians for bow+arrow making. He states that Neba is probably yew.

-> enjoy:


Ssafra, the yellow, a bow made from the yellow wood of the neba tree

Schewat, the name of the tree that bows are cut from and which the same as Neba and Scherijan

An arrow of Kidh wood sounds different to an arrow of Neba wood, and is thus not of the same stuff

One of the most famous sayings involving arrows is that of the regret of Kosaji, which is given by Sylvestre de Sacy in his Chrestomathie Arabe. Koasji had cut himself a bow and five arrows from the beautiful yellow neba wood and, in the night, ambushed some gazelles. Five times pack of the latter came past and five times he shot one of his five arrows, every time seeing sparks come from the rocks. Thinking he had aimed wrongly, when he had no more arrows left he snapped his beautiful bow in anger. When day broke, he saw that five dead gazelles lay around and the bloody arrows lay some distance from these. The arrows had passed through the gazelles and still retained enough power to spark against the rocks. Out of remorse for having broken his beautiful bow, he bit off his thumbs, giving rise to the saying: ?more regretful than Kosaji?.

Pelenk, Pinus Orientalis Linei, a type of conifer tree found in Trabzon. These four types of wood are given in the Excerpts and are still used for arrow-making in Constantinople today. Amongst the Arabs, however, the most highly prized wood for arrow-making is the yellow Neba, which the Kamus says can be of three kinds. The first kind is that which grows on mountain tops and is called Neba, the second grows at the foot of mountains and is called Scherjan, and the third grows in pits and deep valleys and is called Schwewhath. The Kamus says that the tree is known in Turkish as Kam-agadschi, Kogusch-agadschi and akdsche-agadschi, and in Persian as Beschdschir. Of the three Turkish names, only kain appears in the Turkish dictionaries, and is said to mean beech and most definitely not Neba, whose yellow colour is so distinctive that it is mentioned in a saying: ?yellower than an arrow of Neba?. The word beschdschir is also missing from the Persian dictionaries. Schulten translates Neba, which is probably yew, in Semachscheri?s ?Collection of Wise Sayings? as ash, which is any case more plausible than beech, by reason both of the colour and the hardness of the wood

The Arabs are hard like the Neba
The Persians are like willows.

The famous Kassidet Makssuret of the great lexicographer Ibn Doreid also uses an arrow cut from Neba wood as an image of a pilgrim dried out and turned yellow by the hardships of the pilgrimage:

The long hunger had tapered his body
Like an arrow cut from Neba wood.

The famous elegy of the great poet of the Beni Hodeil, Ssachrolgaij, includes the words:

The yellow bow protects me which Sawa made me
Which makes a sound, like that of many men?
It makes its noise when it recoils
Like wild tribes calling through the desert.

I will follow these verses from poets of the Beni Hodeil, which concern themselves particularly with descriptions of bows and arrows, with the following section from a poem by Omer B. ed-Dachils, which gives an exhaustive description of bows and arrows:

It sounds like the moans of widows and orphans
who yearn for their husbands and fathers.
With long, thin iron, with a sharp tip,
from which fire shoots into the eye of the enemy.
The bow is yellow and cut from a branch of Neba,
lined as if with streets and streams.
They turned and I aimed at the entrails,
and the arrows whizzes through the air like the branch of a young willow.
The top of the arrow, the feathers, drank blood,
mixed with the flood of water and iron.
It was at Allda where I and comrades
enjoyed the delicacies of fresh meat and fat.



The wood Schirajet, mentioned above as a type of Neba, also appears in the
poems of Ebu Omaret, of the Beni Hodeil tribe, in their anthology:
With every thin arrow
that thunders down from the noisy bow.

In addition to the four above-named types of wood, Neba, Scherjan or Schirjanet, Schewhath and Neschem, the Beni Hodeil anthology and the Hamasa also teach us about fifth and sixth kinds of trees which are used to make bows, i.e. sixthly [sic] Sera or Serae; a work of the great poet Ssachr includes the verse:
As if a bow were cur from the Sera tree

And seventhly Hirm:
Of my bow of light Hirm wood.

In addition to these woods, the Arabic dictionaries the Kamus and Dschewheri give an eighth: the Nescheb tree, from whose hard wood bows are made. Another saying involving Neba wood relates to the qualities of the latter, which is not at all suited, unlike the wood of the Merch and Affar trees, to making fire by friction. One says of a person who is very resourceful and well-equipped: If he used the Neba to make fire, it would work. The Arabs use Merch as the steel and Affar as the stone when
making a fire; this makes clear two verses from the Koran which would otherwise make no sense:

He, who has made fire from green wood, for you to use in starting fires.
What do you think of fire that comes from green wood ?did you create the wood,
or who?
jack farrell
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Post by jack farrell » Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:13 am

Uli; Well, this all is just brilliant. Thankyou for vindicating me when I stretched my neck out so far. This will all take me a little while to digest but a copy will go into my "botanicals" file. As common names for plants come and go, it might be some project to identify the remaining few without positive ID.

PS. I know from my own experience that coniferous woods will not make friction fire making fire board or spindle.
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Uli
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Post by Uli » Tue Jan 17, 2012 11:06 am

thank you Jack :-)

It would be great if ATARN members who know arabic/persian/turkic languages could have a look on this text and help identify some of the plants !

below a copy of the (german) text part about the three types of Neba in arabic letters.
hcspng
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Hello

Post by hcspng » Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:19 pm

Unfortunately there is no persian word in this text that i could translate.
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