Ancient bows from Mongolia from an exhibition in Bonn Pt. 3

[Fenris]

You are pointing out some interesting details I've also noticed. At "fletchers corner" he is stressing the point that this bow is an exact copy (he even made a comparison with the "fantasy bows on atarn") of the zargalant bow while the data given in the book implies different. Especially the thickness of the several layers as seen in the CT compared to the ones given in the table (you already mentioned that).
On the horn I had a discussion with him. In his opinion there was was no problem in using horn of any shape or position in the orig. Horn (front, back, side). He said just heating and pressing is all that is needed. Indeed I made an experience with a horn-dealer sharing the same opinion. The horn was from the side of a orig. Horn and pressed with too great heat. As a result it was very brittle, with blisters inside an in wide parts unusable.
The drop of draw weight I first blamed on the creeping in a sinew layer too thick an horn to thin (as he told in the forum), later realizing that the layer was not that thick at all while the horn is about 6 mm.
Mr. Rutschke knows much more than the information given in the book, while I think he is holding back some. For example I asked him about the Chagan bow. He only said that there are measurements at the museum an he does not know whether someone will use them in any way. Who knows. There is a question section at fletchers corner on his article I am sure he will tell when asked .

Kevin

[JR]

What a nice idea: to build a bow instead of running down a bow and a bowyer you never have seen and never have had the pleasure to meet.
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@all: It is hard scientific work, to investigate a Mongolian bow in short time, to re-build it and then to publish the informations, before the bow will vanish in the depth of history of China, Mr. Selby and Mr. Karpovicz know that. The authors gave this information to you and you hang around here in this thread nothing to do than to defame them, shame on you!!
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@JJ: Do you remember my visit 20 years ago? I gave you some details of bows for your examination paper. The following 20 years I spent my spare time as scientist to build nearly 200 EXPERIMENTAL bows of all categories. I published dates in several papers, for example: we had had intensive discussions of three years on the reconstruction of the hun-bow of Wien-Simmering.
@Adam: We appreciate your work in books and publications and are very pleased about the exact description of Scythian bows. But this here is not your style. Please, Sir, back to the facts and back to science!

[Orda Khan]

You seem annoyed that your opinion is questioned? Yet you are quoted as referring to this site as 'fantasy'?

Double standards.

[jack farrell]

JR; Greetings; Thankyou for coming to our forum. It is unfortunate that there are hurt feelings but I must say that if one publishes on a popular topic, one must accept the scrutiny of the readers and do so pleasantly and firmly but with facts. One of the problems is the level of secrecy and exclusivity of access which surrounds these Mongolian bows.

What I want is what I provided for many bows in the past which are not published and the information is not generally available to others. I want line drawings of the bows with the most complete dimensions possible of all the component parts. This is the easiest way to skirt copyright provisions and not violate anyone's trust.

There is a long history of secrecy in bowmaking and we at ATARN have not subscribed to keeping any information from other's scrutiny.

So be brave, stand on your long experience, show us what you know, and let us make up our own opinions of the material.

Since I do not know about your work except from the statements you just made, I look forward to knowing about your projects. Why not participate? Thankyou, Jack.

[Fenris]

I have to correct the "fantasy bows" that I quoted false.

It was a translation in sense, not literally (!). In a thread about hunbows JR claimed that the numerous build hunbows on atarn have no support in literature. They are indeed composit bows. May look an shoot very well but there are no hunbows.
For all those who speak german I post the original sentence: "Alles andere sieht man zuhauf bei ATARN: Nachempfundene Hunnenbogen ohne R?ckhalt bei Literatur oder nach den Originalfunden. Das sind dann zwar Komposits und sie schie?en sicher auch gut und sehen gut aus, aber Hunnenbogen sind das nicht. ".
So I have to again say sorry for the wrong (!) citation that may have distorted what was actually said.

Kevin

P.S.: I am aware of the fact that providing wrong information is definatly worse than providing no information. So sorry to J.R. as well!

[JR]

@Jack: Thank you!



I have got only information about the Jargalant bow. May be, we can get more information about the other bows in future.
We start with the wooden core.

[Adam Karpowicz]

JR - I am very glad you have joined us at ATARN and we all hope to learn from you about the famous Mongolian bows.

I am not trying to diminish your accomplishments, but I think my questions are reasonable. As an experienced bowyer I am sure you know exactly why I said what I said about the replica. I build all kinds of bows and do not see a reason this style could be beyond my abilities. To be sure, I am not particularly interested in this particular style, but hope (as others do) to have enough information to make one, time permitting. I like to experiment.

Anyway, back to the task: could you be kind to tell us the location of the CT-scan of the bending limb as published in the catalog on page #184? The limb has a slight taper and knowing the place of measurement from the CT-scan, we can infer the dimensions of the rest of limb. This will allow to make a replica of roughly similar draw weight to the original.

Adam

[JR]

@Adam: Yeah, right. A little bit misunderstanding. Your style of making bows is excellent. I do learn! (see attachment)
No, it is the style of discussion here. It is so easy - they only had to ask me.

Please, you have to accept that I want to keep the good connections to the museum. Therefore - all information out of the publication and my experience with building the bow.

[Patrick Menzies]

Well then, do you think your replica is a good bow?

[Adam Karpowicz]

That is good craftsmanship JR. Have you tried a horn version of this bow? I no longer make the bows, since (other than the stability issues) I find I can not shoot them with a thumbring for some reason...

Adam

[Redhorse]

"no problem in using horn of any shape or position in the orig. Horn (front, back, side). He said just heating and pressing is all that is needed."
I have try all those things. And will not use anything else then the underside on a bow that is made for shoting. Inner curve can do but are mostly not wide enough. But makes nice kids bows.
Sidewalls can be used under kasan if 5 pice bow and under handle. I have seen what happens to a heat pressed sidewall hornslat on a bow with draw weight, I will not do that again.

[JR]

@Adam: No horn version.
This was just experimental. Laminated yew, bending by heat in the grip section, two layers of sinew. It is a little bit longer than yours and a little bit narrower. Draw weight round about 50 lb/ 28"
Hard work to tiller, hard work to get stability.
It is a very exciting design which you created and we had a long diskussion about this bow.
The draw is strong from beginning up to the end and a very exact hit ratio.
Thumb ring or horse back: no.

@Patrick: Please make your own opinion at the end of my explanations.
In the moment there is not much time left, job and so. I will start in the evening with the wooden core. There are some strong distinctions on the Jargalant bow.

[redhawk]

JR, we all have one question for you! Why do you still insist on making a hornbow like this?

1. wooden core
2. sinew- back the wooden core
3. glue the horn to the sinew/core- lam

You?re the only hornbowyer ever working like this. I hope you know what you are missing.

Michael

[Fenris]

@Redhorse
As far as I understood from his postings JR is willing to give a kind of build-along of the Jargalant bow here at the forum. So I assume his reasons not to comply with the traditions according to glue up of the horn will be given within.

Kevin

[JR]

I do not insist! There are a lot of information about my craftsmanship posted here out of context.

As far as I know, there are three methods of building a composite:
1. The ?traditional? way
2. The something other way: wooden core, first sinew layer, then horn
3. wooden core , horn, building sinew layer separately and glue all the layers in one piece

First point: What is traditional? Nobody knows, how the Mongolians made their bows in the 8. Century.
Third point: This is a method to build numbers of commercial bows
Second: Once I started to build a small, narrow selfbow out of plumtree-wood, sinewed it with 2 layers and shot some arrows. I was not satisfied with the power and therefore I glued pieces of horn on the belly. It works! Later on I did some experimental composits by this method. There were some advantages with narrow bows and special woods (plumtree, cherrytree, bamboo) in the tillering process. It depends on the dimensions of the wooden core (thickness, wideness) and the sort of wood. There were disadvantages with wide and weak cores. So I advised this in my paper in the ?Reflexbogenbuch? for beginners. The traditional way was written down in a later chapter by Micha Wolf for Osman bows ( page 252).
I prefer this method, if I had to build new bows with unknown bending characteristics because the tillering-process is better under control. Try it and you will be surprised, I promiss. I do not prefer this method, if I have to build wide bows of 60 mm or if I have to sinew the sides (flanks).
So I practice all these methods.

Last not least: "Tradition does not mean to look after the ash, but to keep the flame alive." If the ancient people would not have tried other ways, the Samurai and the Mongolians would have the bent stick instead of the highly developed yumi or the composite bow!