Ancient bows from Mongolia from an exhibition in Bonn Pt. 3

[Justin Ma]

Thanks but no thanks.
I want to know about the real thing, not some modern facsimile.
70 pounds is heavy? Please.

I strength train with a 110#@30" Kassai Bear (pulling to 30", 160x pulls/session, 3x sessions/week), so I can see how 70# would not be considered heavy by some. However, 70# does reach the threshold for which composites should be able to outperform self bows (in theory).

To put us all on the same page w.r.t. self bow performance numbers, would you mind sharing references and/or links to the self bow performance numbers you are familiar with?

[redhawk]

Oh, Dusan the chief of the rabbits has chimed in...........
.........joking?

Justin, just have a look at the PALEOPLANET FLIGHT SHOOTING SECTION, selfbows drawing less than 50lbs do 200- 240f/sec, design, clever and solid use of the raw materials, geometry and the bow/arrow- interaction is the key not mixing up different principles and materials.
Badger(Steve Gardner) has recently shot about 264f/s with a short sinew- backed plum, so the 300f/s are even thinkable now.
No need for mega- drawweights. But I really accept and appreciate the guys having fun with high drawweights, I like challenges too, but not that one, I?m dreaming of breaking the 300f/s with a 49lbs selfbow!
Michael

[Redhorse]

300 fps is no the problem make an arrow light enough is the problem
My fastest is 254 fps, hornbow and carbon arrow. Dont remember mass but a standard arrow maybe 350-400 grains.
But this is nonsens who would go combat with a 50 lb stickbow that gives only a few shoots before it break down? Different tools for different tasks.
How many days can a stick bow be braced before it lose weight?
Can you imagen Khan say, stop fighting my bow must rest

[Peter Dekker]

So I hear but we're talking about a precise replica of a supposed representative bow of the composite warbow type.
I keep hearing the praise but still looking for results.
All heavy bows are quite spectacular in a way.
Tell me about your "nice experience" and how it was better thasn anything else.

I see you critizicing a lot with strong tones of scepticism about composite bows and their merits. Could you instead find it in you to take a more productive turn and propose a thesis of your own that we can then investigate? Come on, what is it that you want to say?

Looking forward to you getting down to your point so we can discuss it like gentlemen.

-Peter

[Justin Ma]

Justin, just have a look at the PALEOPLANET FLIGHT SHOOTING SECTION, selfbows drawing less than 50lbs do 200- 240f/sec, design, clever and solid use of the raw materials, geometry and the bow/arrow- interaction is the key not mixing up different principles and materials.
Badger(Steve Gardner) has recently shot about 264f/s with a short sinew- backed plum, so the 300f/s are even thinkable now.
No need for mega- drawweights. But I really accept and appreciate the guys having fun with high drawweights, I like challenges too, but not that one, I?m dreaming of breaking the 300f/s with a 49lbs selfbow!
Michael

As Redhorse mentioned, speed isn't everything for combat situations. Kinetic energy is important when you actually care about combat readiness. Redhorse's quoted <254 fps, 350-400 grain arrow> is at least 68 J of KE.

But if I were to pick a couple of examples from that forum, BrunoB's 62#@23" hickory/osage reflex/deflx bow yields <246 fps, 220 grains>, or 40 J of KE ( http://paleoplanet69529.yuku.com/reply/ ... ply-425275 ). And Steve Gardner's (Badger's) aforementioned 50#@18" sinew-backed plum is a composite (not a self bow). That said, the performance numbers of <268 fps, 112 grains> and <160 fps, 400 grains> yield only 24 J and 31 J respectively ( http://paleoplanet69529.yuku.com/reply/ ... ply-285377 ). I wouldn't exactly take these bows to a battlefield (though to be fair to you, Michael, you admit that high draw weights are not your own personal goal).

Anyway, Michael, I admire your work and I appreciate that you are providing references. But since some of us aren't familiar with the performance numbers of high poundage self bows for war, I would like Patrick Menzies to take some responsibility and provide the appropriate data and references with which he is familiar.

[Redhorse]

Heavy ELB has 60-65% efficiency, a hornbow at top can be over 90%. So it beat the stickbow any time. Even if a lousy one with only 70%

[Patrick Menzies]

I'm not sure why people are getting bent out of shape by my questioning.
We've all heard the composite is far superior thoughts but when we look for the data to support it we always find very tenuous evidence.
Adam did his tests and showed the most convincing evidence of the superiority of the composite over a certain weight.
But why is it we can never find a composite enthusiast to shoot these bows in competition when the selfbow guys have so many that can shoot their heavyweights?
However if a replicated artifact comes in at 80 pounds and loses 20 pounds with shooting, are we really looking at a realistic view?
The performance of the self bow in longbow form etc. is well known and documented at this point.
If I have to actually dig up these tests and performances it just shows how deep the composite crowd is burying their heads in the sand.

I'm not so certain about the argument that a composite holds up better with long stringing time in a war environment.
ALL natural material bows drop off with stringing time. They are not glass bows. I wouldn't be surprised if a composite actually has more performance variation due to fluctuations in temperature and length of time strung.
We hear about composite bows being put away for the winter since they get stiff and dry. That hardly sounds like a 100% reliable weapon.

Personally I think it was the sheer number of archers on a fast moving mobile platform (the horse) that is the key to the dominance, not specifically what the bows were made from.
Nobody knows better than Redhorse how the two compare when actually tested together.....

[Justin Ma]

If I have to actually dig up these tests and performances it just shows how deep the composite crowd is burying their heads in the sand.

I've only been at this a short time, so I'd love to see data whenever possible. Please give us more data and less attitude.

[Redhorse]

it took the master of stickbows to beat the amatures not ready bow with a few fps. What does it tell us?

[Patrick Menzies]

What it does show is that if the selfbow beat the composite in that test one can hardly expect a dramatic shift in the opposite direction.
Blunt statements and requests are not attitude, Justin.
The info is readily available but I'll dig up some numbers if I must.
Believe me I see the point of the composite to many degrees but I'm hard pressed to come to any conclusion that they are vastly superior.
It is worth noting that the flight shots made in modern times by wood bows and composites are remarkably close per draw weight.
It is also worth noting that the two composites that shot over 500 and 600 yards, either broke or dramatically broke down in performance.
The self bow record holder was retired to a life of hunting.
Please don't misconstrue this info as "attitude".

[Justin Ma]

The info is readily available but I'll dig up some numbers if I must.

Yes, enough side chatter. Data please.

[Patrick Menzies]

http://www.usaarcheryrecords.org/Flight ... ecords.pdf
There's some info that I laboriously extracted from google for you.

[Justin Ma]

http://www.usaarcheryrecords.org/Flight ... ecords.pdf
There's some info that I laboriously extracted from google for you.

That doesn't say anything about the mass of arrows used, the draw weight of the individual bows, or the arrows' speeds. Please show something more detailed.

[Patrick Menzies]

I knew you would dance around that.
The flight rules constantly seem to be changing but at least recently they seem to have standardized arrow length at a certain minimum length.
That has tended to put the arrows in a quite similar weight range across the bow types.
Particularly focus on the more recent records for comparative purposes.
Those are quite well known quantities shooting what we would still recognize as arrows.

[Justin Ma]

I knew you would dance around that.
The flight rules constantly seem to be changing but at least recently they seem to have standardized arrow length at a certain minimum length.
That has tended to put the arrows in a quite similar weight range across the bow types.
Particularly focus on the more recent records for comparative purposes.
Those are quite well known quantities shooting what we would still recognize as arrows.

Seems like you are the one dancing around. Please show more detailed data.