Composite/ wood bow comparisons

[Bede]

It is unfortunate that my skill with the the siper stops at 60 lbs otherwise I might be one of the fortunate ones who gets to shoot one of Adam's flight bows.

One of the problems with the hawk's grasp (changal-i baz) with a siper is that it requires a grip of quite slender profile and the use of the mushamma. The brace height has to be just over 6.5 inches so that the angle of the wrist can keep it out of the way of the string. However, without the siper, it can be practised without too much difficulty and the grip is less critical. You can even do it with a Korean bow, but the follow through turns into an exaggerated khatrah and you risk hitting yourself in the chin with the lower bow tip as the bow rotates. According to the Persian manuscripts that Dr Khorasani and I are examining, the hawk's grasp was the most popular in Iran for several hundred years as the standard grasp with a normal arrow. Therefore I think practising with it could be done as a part of the usual archery training. It is remarkably accurate in target shooting.

The Hungarians brought some modified siper designs to Utah last year that could be used without much training and could be modified for shooting left or right of the grip so a Western archer could use them without much trouble. The necessary smoothness of release for flight shooting is the same for three fingers and the thumb. Though the designs by which they were held were not traditional, they had the same effect as a traditional siper.

Gokmen made an important point. There is documentary proof that the Turks shot the distances they claimed. In Egypt, there were similar shots in the Mamluk period. In Iran, 1200 gaz was considered the maximum cast for a flight bow with long arrows in the 16th century. There are ancient Greek and Mongolian record stones in existence. To assume that any event recorded by a Western European is somehow more true than one recorded in another culture is naive. In Turkish literature and Persian literature, it is clear that accurate recording of distances was at a premium. The surviving stones are witness to the seriousness that flight archery was taken at the time. There is a published study of the real distance between a matched foot stone and its record stone in Istanbul that confirmed the record shot there.

You only have to read the English comments on seeing Turks shoot in person to realise that they were stunned by the distances that they saw and recorded themselves. Klopsteg has a whole chapter on the subject and, with an analysis of the texts in English, proves that they were no more reliable than anyone else in reporting distances accurately. People like Sir Ralph Payne-Gallwey and Ingo Simon achieved flight records in their times with original old Turkish bows. Considering their lack of training in the thumb draw (Payne-Gallwey advised using the thumb ring upside down like a Korean male ring), the bows performed very well.

[Patrick Menzies]

Of course there is no reason to doubt those records since they have been well exceeded by modern bows and overdraw devices.
The current drive should be to get back to those performances and tow the wood bow crowd along.
Or vice versa. :lol:
I find it remarkable that the English were not somewhat more cognizant of the composite bow.
Hadn't they learned anything during the Crusades?

[Justin Ma]

I find it remarkable that the English were not somewhat more cognizant of the composite bow.
Hadn't they learned anything during the Crusades?

Mike Loades (whom I occasionally see at the range since his move to northern California) has the hypothesis that after seeing the composite bows during the crusades, the English put a recurve on the tips of their longbows. http://youtu.be/VnPcyGjYZmc?t=4m followed by http://youtu.be/7-jsvBt2HI0

Not sure of the humidity in England, but the humidity in places like Japan and southern India make it pretty impossible to use horn bows there.

[Bede]

Knowing about composite bows and mass producing them are two different things. The people who went on Crusade and eventually got back to Europe were either rich or lucky. The attrition rate from travel accidents and disease was very high. Upper class English people did not use bows themselves in battle very often. There are some notable exceptions.

It is important to understand how resistant to change medieval societies were. If you read the European accounts of the Crusades you will see that aside from noting high rates of fire and commenting on the presence of archery, there was very little understanding of the differences between the cultures. Bertrandon de la Brocquiere in the 1430s learned how to shoot with a thumb ring and brought a bow and arrows back from the Holy Land to the Duchy of Burgundy, but in order to encourage the Duke to launch another Crusade he minimized the effect of Turkish archery. It has been noted that yew longbows did not perform well in the Mediterranean because of the heat so there might have been few chances to directly compare performances.

Commanders like the Black Prince did go and return from Palestine and he did know how to use archers in battle in the English manner, but he did not have to fight people with composite bows in England and France so why would he bother to start a new industry when his opponents were either marginally equal or outclassed?

Mike Loades' conjecture is interesting, but, judging from the Marty Rose bows, recurvature did not enter into war bow construction in England, when they were in everyday use. On the continent, in Burgundy and France, this might have been different.

[daryush]

Not sure of the humidity in England, but the humidity in places like Japan and southern India make it pretty impossible to use horn bows there.

Well, during the late Roman period, composite bows were in use almost as far north as the the Scottish border! I forget the exact sites where the siyah laths were found though ...

Whether these bows were as refined as the ones used in Asia at the time is unknown. They may have been constructed with more emphasis on durability and waterproofing. If that makes any sense.

It's thought that composite bows died out in Britain by around 400 - 450 AD. This is all second-hand information, so I may be mistaken.

[Patrick Menzies]

I'm not sure how different the climate would be on the Scottish borders relative to places where Novgorod type bows were used.
The finding of bone laths doesn't necessarily indicate classic style composites were used.

[Bede]

The excavated laths had cross hatching where the sinew was glued over the antler. Since the bowyers were probably from the east Mediterranean coast, the most likely construction is contemporary composite. For a description of the finds in England you can see it in J. C. N. Coulston's Roman Archery. Some of the laths were in production when they were discarded and it is clear that some of the legionaries were only amateur bowyers.

When the Roman infrastructure was removed the composite bows fell into disuse. The native peoples would have been using self bows for hunting because they were cheaper and easier to make and when the Romans left they continued using them. Undoubtedly, Saxon and Norse invasions reinforced this pattern.

I think what this proves is the spread of the composite bow in Europe was not limited by climate, but more linked to culture and need. Why go to all that trouble if you don't need to? After the Romans left plumbing and composite bows were forgotten. One disappeared because the large buildings and towns were not being used and the other because the skill in manufacture and the need for the weapon had departed with the Roman army.

[Redhorse]

"not limited by climate, but more linked to culture and need"
And still is
But, Bede use 60lb on the flightshooting, what weight are the other bows?

[Fenris]

''3. Make a good bow and send it to someone who should have the dedication to train with the siper. I have done it, but there have been problems on the way (still do not know what will come out of this)''

well I guess I am one of these guys, or maybe 'the' guy.

G?kmen

Well this is seriously great ! When reading about the efficiency Adam achieved with his bows, I was always thinking: Why doesn't he go to Utah and break the record!? This question popped into my mind last time when I read about the record Csaba Grozer achieved with his version of a composite bow. I was thinking: "Guys bring the record back home:)." The limitations in doing so were discussed in this thread. Even if one can pull 120 lbs with his thumb it requires a lot of skill for launching the arrow out of the siper properly. Anyway, since I am following the "turkish archery movement" for quite a while, I was aware that there are people within that may have the skill and power. So I am really glad to see that two of the best in turkish archery came together to reestablish the old records. I am looking forward to this!

Kevin

P.S.: Besides that I still think a reasonable comparison of bows relies on the calculated efficiencies at a certain draw length, arrow weight.

[Bede]

While I have an eighty pound bow from Adam, the last few years I was only strong enough to pull it to about 65 lbs. The sixty pound bow I have has developed a crack in the core at the handle which I will attempt to repair but I don't think it will ever return to its original efficiency. Neither bow is a flight bow, but someone said they would make me one this year, but who knows if it will be ready in time.

It is worthwhile to train to build up your muscular control because it also affects your mental steadiness. If the strength of the bow does not overstress you it is easier to concentrate on shooting well.

One other thing is you only have to shoot the bow six times in a round so that it can be near the limit of your strength.

[Redhorse]

I have a slow internet connection right now but I did find this http://www.usaarcheryrecords.org/Flight ... ecords.pdf
One turkis record 285 m.

[Patrick Menzies]

I already linked to that on the other thread.
Bede mentions that Jaap's bow wasn't optimised for flight nor was his sipur technique refined. Still you can see that all the primitive wood bows are in the same range or better.
If I wre trying to bring back the composite glory days I wouldn't even show up until I was at least half way to the old record.

[Redhorse]

I shoot longer then 285m with a 26" Secura arrow but I guess it don't counts without siper.
Some day maybe we have a competion here in Sweden also. So distance will be official.
Is thumbdraw a must?

[Redhorse]

I put sinew on a twowoodbow and gave it to a hunting buddy. He started to shot with thumbring from begining. Now he complines it's to light. 60+lb It took a month.

[Adam Karpowicz]

Kevin,

"the record Csaba Grozer achieved with his version of a composite bow"

Was that a "biocomposite"? Do you have a link?

Adam