Composite/ wood bow comparisons

[Patrick Menzies]

It is mentioned here http://www.hungarianarchery.com/History ... &Itemid=70
and likely on Grozer's site too .

[Fenris]

I have an article here from "Traditionell Bogenschie?en" from 2010 where Grozer and Jozsef Monus gave an interview bout their record, following information:
-the bow was a biocomposite, build with materials not used in the series production (Grozer)
-bow with a draw weight of 102 lbs on 31", according to the pictures it is braced very low (maybe 10 cm)
-used a short arrow (52-56 cm, 16 g with a guide rail, not connected to the grip of the bow, it is held in the hand
-no feathers but scales (fish)
-String was Fastflight 4 (4 threads; 0,7 mm diameter???)
-maximum speed: 383 fps
Further on they say that the bow would not break, even with arrwos that light.
What anoyed me at the time, was the fact that this was widely claimed as a world record. With all respect to the achievements of the two (Grozer and Monus), within the interview they did not even mention the okmeydan and the menzil stones. Maybe this was due to the reglement of the shooting, where nothing should be fixed to the grip. But actually the siper is not fixed to the grip but to the archers hand... Anyway I am over it now , especially since I know there are people work on it.

Kevin

P.S.: How long/often do traditional turkish flight bows survive the shooting with 3gr/lbs?

[Patrick Menzies]

It also ignores the Osage/Sinew bows that shot that far and Do n Brown's American record of over 600 with a composite.
Very odd that they would claim it as a record under any circumstances since that has been surpassed many times with equally "rule bending" enhancements.

[jack farrell]

Not a record but myself and another both shot a Korean semi-horn bow as set up for Korean archery over 300 yds, #56, standard target arrows 6.5X6.5 carbon (375 grains, 31") all standard out of the box, no practice, three finger tab.

[Adam Karpowicz]

Some people claim the biocomposite is a fiberglass laminate with sinew and horn facings. See here: http://paleoplanet69529.yuku.com/reply/ ... ply-425874

Can someone confirm this?

Adam

[Justin Ma]

Can someone confirm this?

I can confirm this. I have seen an uncovered Chinese Biocomposite model that belonged to a friend. It had the horn plate / glass / wood / glass / sinew plate construction as described in the link.

[Redhorse]

I have an article here from "Traditionell Bogenschie?en" from 2010 where Grozer and Jozsef Monus gave an interview bout their record, following information:
-the bow was a biocomposite, build with materials not used in the series production (Grozer)
-bow with a draw weight of 102 lbs on 31", according to the pictures it is braced very low (maybe 10 cm)
-used a short arrow (52-56 cm, 16 g with a guide rail, not connected to the grip of the bow, it is held in the hand
-no feathers but scales (fish)
-String was Fastflight 4 (4 threads; 0,7 mm diameter???)
-maximum speed: 383 fps
Further on they say that the bow would not break, even with arrwos that light.
What anoyed me at the time, was the fact that this was widely claimed as a world record. With all respect to the achievements of the two (Grozer and Monus), within the interview they did not even mention the okmeydan and the menzil stones. Maybe this was due to the reglement of the shooting, where nothing should be fixed to the grip. But actually the siper is not fixed to the grip but to the archers hand... Anyway I am over it now , especially since I know there are people work on it.

Kevin

P.S.: How long/often do traditional turkish flight bows survive the shooting with 3gr/lbs?

Good distance. But so long they don't say it's a record for traditional bows it's fine. One gram epoxy and it's no more a traditional bow

[Fenris]

The point is that in his Forum (Grozer homepage http://www.grozerarchery.com/index_m.htm "Flight sooting Record") he claims that it's a traditional bow. Maybe according to design .
This pressed sinew and horn realy kept me wondering. I think it is maybe horn/sinew waste from his true composite production that he reuses. A potential way is etching the horn/sinew in some acid to some degree, then adding crosslinking chemicals like EDC/NHS to reform the protein matrix pressed in a certain shape. In the end you get a substance like reformed meat in a well defined form. The problem will be that the properties of these materials will be different from the originals. There will be a tendency to split into layers again. Maybe not so much for the sinew but for the horn. This may also be the reason for the need of fiberglass between the wooden laminates and the "bio". If this is true, the horn and sinew are just decoration, a kind of marketing gag, that may contribute to some extend to the draw weight.
Anyway I am really wondering how this bow may profit from the pressed sinew and pressed horn!? Since I believe it may not take up compression and tension like horn or sinew in a horn bow, it may lead to heavier arms of the bow, making the bow less efficient. Therefore I think the layers have to be very thin <-- decoration. I think the material not used in his series production may be carbon.

Kevin

P.S.: In the interview they refer to the shoot by Don Brown, as another record with a composite bow (implying that their bow is a composite!!!). They state that this record was done with fixed (!) rail to the grip and a center shoot. Both methods, that stand outside the rules for the hungarian tournament (which I think were made for Grozer ). Furthermore it is said, that Don Browns bow broke after shooting and their bow doesn't.

[Redhorse]

Yep, it's a traditional design
Sinew can be put on as a package.

[Bede]

Patrick,
You can spend you whole life waiting for the perfect moment, but I think it is better to get some experience in actual competition. For Jaap and I, the Utah shoot is both a competition and a test bed for seeing how bows and technique perform. Due to the rules limiting the types of equipment that can compete in certain contests, we have been forced sometimes to enter traditional bows in regular contests. As well, due to the length requirements, I have been unable to enter modern Korean bows in the modern broad head competitions (they are too short, despite their being used in hunting in the US).

In regard to the Hungarians shooting at Bonneville Flats, I supplied some of the silk for their strings and saw the bows they used, which appeared to be traditional. Their sipers were held against the grip between the hand and the belly of the bow and as such resemble no ancient device, but then the wooden bow users take advantage of riser designs and overdraws that were unknown to any traditional user before the mid twentieth century. The Hungarian bows I saw in the traditional competitions appeared to be standard sinew wood horn composites.

Regarding Jack's comment about regular Korean bows and target arrows, it is consistent with my experience. I shot target darts with a majra in Utah several years ago. The arrow guide was short, 28 inches, and the darts had three inch target feathers and 125 grain points so there was no chance of optimising them for flight, but they still went more than 330 yards. The bow was about 53 lbs.

What our shooting in Utah has shown us is that there are more factors than just pulling the bow back and letting go. There are subtleties in technique that you do not appreciate when you are on a target range or in a random field. Archers always overestimate how far their arrows have gone in unmeasured environments, especially in irregular topography. shooting at Bonneville Flats has revealed several important facts.

• 1. Arrow weight is critical as is balance. In calm conditions on long ranges, the angle and manner of landing of the arrow contain information about how it flies.
  2. It is really easy to built a heavy but slow bow. Even in the broadhead competitions this is a disadvantage.
  3. Bowstrings will break. If you do not occasionally break a bowstring, you are making them too heavy because stronger is heavier. It is fine and recommended to practise with heavier strings for safety and durability, but in competition you have to be more efficient.
  4. Received wisdom about materials has to be tested. My experiences with gut, linen and silk are not what I expected based on my reading of technical articles and anthropological reports. They performed differently. gut was less stretchy than I had been informed, linen was more brittle (on composites) and silk, while it performed well and was stronger than I expected, had a natural tendency to knot to itself that makes me think most of the serving on silk strings was to prevent this at the expense of weight.

I could go on. There is only so much one can anticipate of problems and performance. You have to test in the real world and where better than a properly run competition? And it's fun.

[jack farrell]

My main question about flight shooting is how to accurately calculate the shooting angle. Is there a device? Is prompting acceptable?

I made a 100 yd sisal string winder with markers sewn on for accuracy in distance measuring.

[redhawk]

I always appreciate Bede?s comments, he knows what?s the point here.......no myths, no legends, facts, that?s what we need.
I?ve just begun with flight- archery about 2 years ago. I was very proud when I?ve succeded the first 50-lbs- selfbow breaking the 200f/s. When dreams come true, the real problems are coming up: to find the right arrow took me much more effort than the bow. In the meanwhile I know how to make light and extremely stiff arrows( hex-shaft, enforced shafts). Next and most delicious problem is the shooting itself. How to shoot a flight- bow( angle, grip, release...........)? That?s a real challenge, but a lot of fun.

Jack seems to become infected by the flight- bow fever too, be careful, it?s a drug!

Michael

[Bede]

Jack,
In the competition, it is permitted to have a coach to advise you on the angle. The coach can hold a simple device like a triangle (90/45/45) to help you, but honestly it is not much of an advantage. It is really just a minor help since only you know whether the draw is right and if you are fast which is good you shoot before they can get a chance to say anything. The real way to guarantee it is to practice like the Turks.

The advantage of Bonneville Flats is you can clearly see the horizon. What I found is that you often underestimate the angle. I have looked at a lot of photographs we have taken and quite a few times the angle is too small.

[Redhorse]

Facts is fine but nobody will believe it any way so why post?
200fps can be made with most bow, just go light enough with the arrow, if that is the goal.
But if you like to improve the bow, go for efficiency. Because that is what makes the arrow fly fast.
I don't think 300fps should be any problem for a bow, it' more depending on the arrow. You can make it short, but thats not a weapon anymore. I have shoot 255fps with 400 grains but cant make a 200 grains arrow that takes the abuse. I did try carbon but they explode.
The speed of dryfiring is the fastest the limbs can move. But I have no idea of what speed it is.
Redhawk, Read more carefully what Badger answers you.

[Redhorse]

Jack,
In the competition, it is permitted to have a coach to advise you on the angle. The coach can hold a simple device like a triangle (90/45/45) to help you, but honestly it is not much of an advantage. It is really just a minor help since only you know whether the draw is right and if you are fast which is good you shoot before they can get a chance to say anything. The real way to guarantee it is to practice like the Turks.

The advantage of Bonneville Flats is you can clearly see the horizon. What I found is that you often underestimate the angle. I have looked at a lot of photographs we have taken and quite a few times the angle is too small.

Could a post be used? In front of archer at a distance and height that gives correct angle when you shoot over it?