Archery technique during the first Polish commonwealth

[Zotski]

Hi to all, I'm relatively new to ATARN and I have a history related question with regards to horse archery / archery technique used by elements of the Polish military during the first Polish commonwealth, specifically light riders, Tatars, Cossacks and Lisowczcy amongst others. What draw technique was used ? Three finger or thumb ? Or would there have been a mixture of technique based on personal preference / experience ? I have attached a painting by Jozef Brandt showing Lisowczcy during target practice, it would seem that the rider depicted is using a thumb draw. I dont know how accurate Brandt would have been in his paintings but it is said that he did study 17th century military life with regards to his art. I've also included this link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hPzzR76AXQ a Polish documentary about Lisowczcy made in 1993 there is a demonstration of a Parthian shot of sorts at about 09:55 into the film. An interesting documentary nonetheless. Also an additional query, any ideas as to draw weights of bows used during that period ? Thanks in anticipation of your replies

[Bede]

Some of our Polish colleagues will have access to contemporary records of the time. There are some points that can be made that might be useful. In the fifteenth century, the Hungarians were using composite bows, but drawing with two fingers according to an eye witness, Bertrandon de la Brocquiere. This means that shooting with a variant of the Mediterranean Release has a long history in eastern Europe. The Lithuanian Tatars most likely kept using thumb rings like their ancestors. This means there were at least two strong traditions in the area. It would be interesting to see if one predominated over the other. However, it is likely that, as in the case of styles of swordsmanship, several traditions could coexist.

[Zotski]

Thanks for the reply Bede. I would tend to agree with regards to there being a mixture of styles co existing with each other, it sounds reasonable. I know that Poland was heavily influenced militarily by Turkish and Tatar fighting styles and tactics. The Polish military of the time used Crimean Tatar and Turkish "type" war bows, obviously this type of bow lends itself well to be used with a thumb draw but could also be shot using a three finger or as you stated a two finger draw variant, but would this have been a less efficient technique ? And with regards to using two fingers with a high draw weight bow would it have been possible ? ( I don't know the draw weights that would have been used I'm assuming 70-80lbs upwards to 130 or 140lbs ? ) Also are there any thumb rings in Polish museums as there are in Turkish ones ? I'm hoping that some of the Polish members might come up with some answers

[Bede]

It is quite normal in Late Mediaeval art to show English longbow archers shooting massive bows using only two fingers. Personally I have found it no more difficult to draw a heavy bow with two fingers than three fingers. Shooting accurately needs practice because the distribution of pressure is different, but the release is smoother and faster. My experience may not be typical since I have not shot regularly with three fingers for decades.
Also I was shooting without finger protection so there were not a lot of shots involved.

[Zotski]

I have tried using a two finger draw with a bow draw weight of 50lbs and I have to admit I found it easier and more stable to draw using a three finger or thumb draw. Probably because I wasn't used to it and as you stated a new technique needs practice to be proficient. Any idea what the draw weight of war bows of that period were ?

[Uli]

average should have been 80-120 lbs..

[Arry]

Zotski, Andrzej Abratowski would be a person to contact. He is a member of this forum, you can find him through the Memberlist.
A few years ago, he has published an article about mounted archery in the Commonwealth in the Journal of the Society of Archer-Antiquaries.

[Zotski]

To Uli, Ive just been reading some of Adam Karpowicz articles on here and he mentions draw weight estimates of between 90-160 lbs but also classes some 75 lb and 72 lb bows as war bows in his Turkish bow tests article ( measured at 28" draw ) so 80 to 120 lbs seems like a reasonable average. Over 120 lbs seems like overkill and how on earth someone could draw 160lbs !!! Anyone on here shot some heavy weight bows ? If so what was it like ?
Thanks for the contact Arry I'll pm Andrzej.

[Bede]

I was once handed a 135 lb America bow by Marlon Torres and drew it just past my left elbow. I gave up then since I was a long way from a physiotherapist. In Korea once, several archers and I attempted to draw a 103 lb bow unsuccessfully. Luckily there was a Mongolian girl there to show us how it was done.

I have seen Marlon and Jaap draw very heavy bows and, while Marlon is very well muscled, I think it is practice and technique that allows them to succeed. Marlon in my presence has shot 150 lb bows. This was with flight arrows and a longbow so his technique had to be flawless otherwise there would have been splintered arrow bits everywhere. Incidentally, he drew the 135 lb bow once and it exploded. That's more excitement than you need in an afternoon.

[Adam Karpowicz]

I agree with Bede - it is a matter of practice. Its quite natural to progress to heavier and heavier bows, unless one limits himself to target shooting. When I was younger, I could handle a 100lb bow and even three years ago I could shoot a 90lb with no pain. There is a growing number of archers in the UK and elsewhere, who regularly practice with bows well over a 100lb.

As to the the Polish technique - I recall a Polish source mentioning the use of the ring for "stiff" bows, together with the 3-f method, but Andrzej will be the best contact to ask.

Adam

[Zotski]

With Archery as well as any other Martial Art correct application of technique amplifies base physical strength, I've seen people who physically don't look particularly strong draw heavy bows of 100 lbs plus. I stand 1.88 meters tall and weigh 107 kg, I would consider myself of above average strength after years of weight training and MMA, yet I've never drawn a bow over 100 lbs and I doubt very much if I would be able too and shoot competently at this point in time.

I've pm'd Andrzej and no reply as of yet.
Adam I'm not sure I understand what you mean by using a ring for "stiff" bows.
Open question : Any views as to whether it is "easier" to draw heavier bows with a three finger draw as opposed to thumb ? Also is it wise / practical to alternate between three finger and thumb draw for different bows ? Moreover is there any benefit ?

[Bede]

Several people have made the point in this forum that there is a disadvantage for an archer to draw a heavy bow in practice with the thumb. If you do not shoot, it is easy to learn bad habits and ruin your thumb lock. Drawing practice was usually done with the fingers. Shooting heavy bows for practice was a different matter because the release was completed and you did not hold the thumb lock for too long at full draw.

Shooting alternately with fingers and the thumb is a different matter because of the the different side of the bow the arrow is placed. This changes the base point of aiming and makes a difference where the arrow lands. Most people have trouble with this. If you can shoot in one of the forms on the opposite side of the bow accurately, this problem does not occur. This ability could be useful if you lost your ring or injured your thumb.

Regarding the ease of drawing heavy bows with the thumb as opposed to the fingers, it depends on how long you have shot with either style. I have shot for decades with my thumb so it is easier for me to shoot a heavy bow with a thumb ring. If I can draw it with my fingers, I can draw it with my thumb. I think it is what you train the longest at that dominates your ability.

[Adam Karpowicz]

I found the reference. Sarnicki (1576) writes in his "Hetman's Chronicles" (hetman was an army commander): ... there are three types of bows - English as long as as a man is tall with the tip put on the ground for shooting. The second type can be very small, but strong, so that a ring is needed to draw, as the Turkish Sulats (?) use. The third is mid size and the best for the fast draw and a good shot".

The third would be most likely the Tatar bow (also a composite according to Werner where I found the ref). So, it is hard to say if it was used with a thumbring or not. Anyway, the composites were used in Poland long into the 17th c.

Adam

[mikekeswick]

Regarding getting stronger with practise I do a lot of rock climbing which places 'unnatural' loading on the fingers. After around 5 years I could do 1 finger pull ups. If I had tried to do them when I started I would almost certainly have damaged the finger tendon pulleys, the human body has an amazing ability to addapt to do whatever you ask of it. Pulling a 150lb bow should be within the reach of any physically sound person with the correct training. Most people never push or dedicate themselves to anything physical but if you do and do it wisely the rewards can be surprising. I can draw a 100lb bow with relative ease even though I never really shoot bows over 65lbs. I'm sure with years of dedicated training and practise high weights would be possible.

[Zotski]

Thanks for the replies guys.
Mike you say you can draw a 100 lb bow is that with your thumb or fingers ? How long did it take you to build up to drawing this weight ?

So it would seem that a mixture of techniques may have been used with reference to my original question. Thumb draw most likely with short bows and or from horseback, either thumb or fingers for a "medium" sized bow ( I seem to remember reading that the Tatar bow was generally longer than the Turkish type ) and fingers for a longbow.