gamebowing

istanbuli · Post by **istanbuli** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 6:57 pm

Dear all,
I have found some hunting scenes, in a book of miniature painting, of which I am sending one of the two that shows a very skilful (?) bowyer who may be familiar to some of you. This was rather strange to me and I wanted to share it with you but if you would not accept it as a kind of archery technique I can understand it. (Please do not hesitate to erase the picture and the topic.) Sorry for the quality of the picture.
efdaluddin

Romain · Post by **Romain** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 11:04 pm

Quite funny !

Stephen Selby · Post by **Stephen Selby** » Tue Dec 13, 2005 1:53 am

Maybe he ran out of arrows.

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Tue Dec 13, 2005 3:12 am

It is a common motif in Iranian paintings and I think it refers to an incident in the Shahnama. Of course, using a bow as a lasso is practical if you run out of arrows and you are engaged in a battue hunt where all the animals are driven into circle.

Murat ?zveri · Post by **Murat ?zveri** » Mon Dec 19, 2005 12:33 pm

Using of the bow string for catching the animals in a drive hunt was common among Central Asian Turks and other tribes. In the book of Dede Korkud which consists of the tales and legends of Turks, many details about the daily life were given. The book is sometimes referred as "the Turkish Iliada. Some researchers believe that the legends arose in the arcaic pre-İslamic era and enriched later with Islamic motifs after adopting the new religion. In these tales the pre-Islamic pagan tradition is obvious but the respect and admire to Islamic values are prominant.

When I first read that bowstrings were used for this purpose I thought it was held in the hands and thrown from the horseback. Thanks to Istanbuli for the minitature.

The hunts have always been a war practice among nomadic tribes and Turks, so it makes sense to believe that the bowstring was accepted to be a weapon. Let me remind you that the bowstring has been used widely in political murders during Ottoman time. Many princes and politicians who were sentenced for death have been killed with this weapon, because of the blood taboo inherited from the Central Asian past.

Blood taboo can not be the only reason. It's something to be researched further. In the book I'm writing, there is a chapter about it. I guess it's something to do with the ceremonial kill which is seen in other Asian militarist societies. The Japanese harakiri or seppuku may be a good example in which the victim is honored with a well-prescribed ceremonial suicide.

Stephen Selby · Post by **Stephen Selby** » Tue Dec 20, 2005 1:19 am

If we talk about pre-Islamic practices, there might have been a blood taboo relating to animals to be sacrificed to gods/ancestors. That was the case with the Chinese before the Han Dynasty: when hunting for animals for sacrifice to the ancestors, they had to use a special arrow which would cause the least amount of blood to seep into the skin of the animal.

Alam ed Din, Adnan · Post by **Alam ed Din, Adnan** » Tue Dec 20, 2005 5:53 am

Interesting that you mentioned this: A friend of mine just reconstructed a
so called "Kolbenpfeil" with a bulbous tip. It kills or stunns the prey by sheer
impact.Maybe the animal had to be stunned first before the bow could be used like seen in above miniature painting.After all, animals like gazelle are
very fast and very alert.

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Tue Dec 20, 2005 1:00 pm

Alam ed Din,
While gazelle a swift on the open plain, once they had be driven for miles by beaters and found themselves trapped in a shrinking circle of armed men, they were worn out and confused.

Shahs, Sultans and Khans organised giant hunts with thousand of beaters and military precision. Despite the stressed state of the animals at the end, it was not easy for the participants. Depending where you were, you could be leapt on by a lion or tiger, gored by various horned animals, kicked by a wild ass or sat on by an elephant.

Blunts were used in hunting, especially when the hunter wanted to preserve the skin. Blunts shot from a powerful bow could cause serious injury. The Kangxi Emperor records shooting a headless arrow completely through a deer.

jack farrell · Post by **jack farrell** » Tue Dec 20, 2005 1:50 pm

I would suspect that catching an Ibex with a Turkish-type bow would be a bit of folklore. Would we ue a gun to club an animal into submission? -j-

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 1:29 pm

Jack,
In the chaos that these game drives ended in, I think you used whatever came to hand. Some paintings show men fighting bears with daggers and throwing rocks at other animals.

Because these feats were described by Dede Korkut and other authors, if you were seen to do one of those legendary acts by the ruler, you might end up with a reward or a promotion.

One Mogul courtier killed a lion with a sword blow and the Emperor saw it and rewarded him after his retainers had pried the man out of the lion's jaws. There is even a painting of the event. Of course in the official version the Emperor finished off the lion.

jack farrell · Post by **jack farrell** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 2:26 pm

I am sure you know of the many stories of Egyptian Pharoes who asserted that they could transfix a copper "ox-hide" ingot with an arrow, with a bronze point, no less!

About piercing a water glass with an arrow. We used to knock holes in those with BB guns when I was a kid. A friend showed me how. Exactly at 90 degrees to the center of the bottom. A neat trick but more about how glass can break. Interesting nonetheless. -j-

Murat ?zveri · Post by **Murat ?zveri** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 11:09 pm

Stephen,
Adnan,

I meant the "blood taboo" for blood of the royal family. This restriction sometimes included the high rank politicians and military people whether or not they belonged to the royal family.

What I'm wondering is whether the string was used for this purpose just because it was a weapon ready to use, or because it has some symbolic/cerominal meaning in political murders.

In killing the animals I doubt if they've really worried about the animal's blood. In fact, in Islamic beliefs it's necessary to make the animal bleed when it's killed. The game animals that were caught and stopped with the string have most probably been finished off with a knife or sword.

Jack,

piercing the glass with a BB gun is quite different since there is only a small diamater round bullet in flight. The archer's paradox makes it difficult to pierce the bottom of the glass without splittering it in to hundred pieces. The arrow must be shot either from a long distance, or with a very clean release. In the first situation the target is too small and in the second the arrow should be shot with nearly no paradox. Let me remind you the low profile Turkish fletching too.

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 5:31 am

Murat,
The Mongols shared the taboo about royal blood too. Their preferred method of execution was to wrap the offender up in a carpet and beat him to death with clubs or by trampling with horses. One one occasion, they had a feast on top of the soon-to-be departed.

In regard to the piecing of crystal goblets, one friend told me that there was an idiomatic phrase in old Turkish which directly translated meant those words in English, but actually meant to hit the target. I have noticed that translations of the the pillars on the Ok Meidan often use words that mean hit the target when they are clearly talking about hitting the ground. The famous pierced glass would then be an elaborate visual pun on the words of the idiom. It is hard to tell until some does it again.

However, I like the idea of all these serious archers sitting around in the club house, when one pulls out a glass pierced by an arrow and they fall about laughing.

jiao · Post by **jiao** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 12:56 pm

a chinese movie showed how use a bow withstand sword and attack not need arrows, the bow string hanged enemy.

i has try used sword cut the sinewed bow and horn , maybe my sword for cook used can not do this job so good, on the battlefield , there are many chance these horseback archer has no time used his sword caused the bow and arrows on his two hand,so they are use hornbow withstand enemy hurriedly?

Murat ?zveri · Post by **Murat ?zveri** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:46 pm

Bede,

Mongols have so many similarities in their traditions, fighting techniques and archery gear. There is strong evidence that the Seldjuk Turks used the same style bows. I'm sure that Turks and other nomadic tribes took part in the large Mongolian armies. The cultural interaction must have been the natural outcome.

In a documentry film about the story of Chingis Khan another killing method was mentioned: breaking the victim's spine by using a long, thick stick. It was used as a lever and activated by man power. A few strong man were bending the victims torso and kill him that way.

Still it's worth to research how and why these arcaic tradition has been kept after adopting Islam and the related culture.