Grip Hand Technique Discussion: Khatra and Tenouchi

[geoarcher]

I felt like discussing this since I have been more conscious of what my gripping arm and hand is supposed to do these days and am in the pursuit of appropriate technique here.

So I've been going through Saracen Archery and familiarized myself with the concepts of 'backwards elbow punch' for what the drawing hand and arm are to do and of course Khatra, or the forward motion one should achieve with the gripping hand and arm upon release. My question or reason for discussion is to be clear on the purpose here. So Khatra is partly used to ensure the arrow does not wrap over the rise like Tenouchi. Correct?

Also, regarding Tenouchi or even techniques that involve 'twisting' or letting the bow spin, are these supposed to happen naturally upon release or is the motion supposed to be forced? How should the arm and grip be or feel? What is a really good source one would recommend for learning more about how to achieve these techniques properly?

[Bede]

Khatrah is essentially the product of the correct application of the grasp. If the proper pressure from the belly side is slightly miss-matched to the finger pressure on the back, there is a natural tendency for the bow to rotate forward. The arrow is gone before the hand rotates the bow. Photography has proved this recently. With the Japanese bow, this is more complicated.

Taybugha stressed that the khatrah should not occur after the shot. What he was saying was it should not be an element of style, but a natural product of the correct shooting action. He was also critical of people who threw their arms back and up artificially.

[geoarcher]

Oh I see. So it has not the same purpose as the Japanese techniques since the arrow would come in contact with the riser.

I know when I use this though the flight of the arrow is usually quite good but not as perfect as it could be. So its purpose then is more to maintain proper push-pull effect?

What are good sources then for achieving "twist" techniques so that the arrow does not touch the riser? Aren't there other traditions rather then the Japanese techniques? Also it seems some twist techniques are more for show or rather to maintain loose grip so that the bow "falls" after release if I am no mistaken here as well.

[Bede]

Generally in the Middle East, striking the grip with the arrow during the shot was frowned upon. The arrowhead was drawn back in some styles until it was in contact with the side of the grip. This may have resulted in the arrow losing contact with the bow after the string was released. I have found with the hawk's grasp (changal-i baz), the arrow leaves the bow without touching the side of the bow or the thumb. The other grasps are a little more difficult to achieve the perfect passage of the arrow since they are more influenced by the pressure of the draw hand index finger on the side of the nock. Strangely no pressure can have bad effects in the same way too much pressure.

The Koreans start with the bowstring slightly farther from the arm than a straight draw would suggest. This puts a little twist on the bow during the draw and may contribute to the arrow clearing the bow cleanly. The limbs of the bow lean slightly to the side the arrow is placed on so that also contributes.

High speed videos of Japanese bows in action suggest to me that the bow does not start to revolve until the arrow has just left the string, but there is a possibility that the start of the rotation actually pushes the bow hand to the left as the arrow passes it. Flexure of the arrow is very evident in these videos so the archer's paradox probably helps too. In Archery: The Technical Side, there is a diagram of the movement of the bow grip of a long bow as the arrow is shot that suggests that all bows experience some push away from the arrow and the tension in the muscles pushes back after the arrow leaves.

[geoarcher]

changal-i baz = success!

I found it particularly easy to accomplish this with my Turk bow. I believe in part the unique design of the riser helps out here.

It was harder to achieve properly though with my Crimean Tatar bow but this bow is a good 7 pounds heavier and the grips a little different. Needless to say I'll have to feel my way through the peculiarities more.

Nonetheless I get it. Amazing how its all in the grip.

Thanks Bede!

[Bede]

You might find than moving the pressure point between your thumb and fore finger down the grip towards the centre of the bow will help with the Crimean Tatar bow.

I had a bow that always kicked with a curved belly side of the grip and, by getting the hand closer to the centre of the bow, I turned it into a very smooth shooter. There are some old drawings out there of composites bows showing the arrow passing too high up the grip. In one case the artist told me the emphasis was on the unstrung reflex being compared to brace height and full draw. The arrow position was an unfortunate oversight. This has led to some strange bow designs. On original bows the arrow pass is easy to identify since it is the thinnest part of the grip. On many bows there is only enough room for the thumb to be above the centre line. I am referring to Turkish, Persian and Indo-Persian bows.

[MupKo]

Can you describe changal-i baz? Can it be used with Kaya KTB handle?

[Bede]

The grasp can be used on Kaya bows, though the grips are designed for the Korean grasp, which means they are slightly asymmetrical with a high spot on the belly running diagonally from top right to bottom left.

With the hawk's claw grasp, you push the bely of the bow with the area between the base of the thumb and the base of the index finger. Three lower fingers curl around the grip and pull it back toward the palm. The index finger is bent so that its tip rests on the back of the bow. The thumb folds down over the middle finger and is kept relaxed. The metacarpal from the base of the thumb to the wrist is kept horizontal.

[Bj?rn Sofeit]

You might find this video interesting:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSvxlwvhjjA

I use this way of grasping the handle. It helps to keep the indexfinger and the thumb relaxed. If you apply the grip properly, the bow will rotate downward.

[Bede]

This technique is closer to the Manchu way of holding the bow. It does have the advantage of teaching you to relax the index finger and thumb. Its disadvantage is that with the arrowhead being drawn right up to the grip in the Middle Eastern style there is an increased risk that you might tense the index finger into the path of the arrow. This I am assured is extremely painful. Also this grasp is more comfortable with the larger grips of Manchu/Chinese/Mongol bows.

Adam is demonstrating the khatrah here by consciously turning the bow to show the motion after release. This would be for demonstration purposes. In shooting the rotation stems from the removal of the resistance to turning the wrist that occurs when the bowstring is released.

[Amarutu]

I made some progress lately with my "khartra" and other elements. I am happy with the results, but not yet ready with getting rid of errors. I try to use written techniques from the translated manuscripts such as Saracen Archery and Bogenhandwerk und Bogensport bei den Osmanen by J.Hein (~"Archery and Bowyery of the Ottomans") after Mustafa Kani's book on archery, to learn Turkish or Turkish style archery.
I want to put some of my ideas on this topic into this discussion.

My question or reason for discussion is to be clear on the purpose here. So Khatra is partly used to ensure the arrow does not wrap over the rise like Tenouchi. Correct?

My answer is: "It depends on what you understand as Khartra."

If it is only the forward motion of upper siyah with a rotating motion from the bowhands wrist, the answer is "no". This is - as Bede made clear - not able to eliminate the arrows scratching on the arrowpass. It just can't. It's only a forward motion.

If Khartra means the whole "follow through" motions to you, my answer changes to "yes". In chapter 20 of Saracen Archery are "34 Points" of the archers body, that should be tensed or relaxed. The point in the archers body I want to focus now is the shoulder of the bowarm, which must be relaxed according to Taybugha. This relaxed left shoulder allows my back muscles to move the bowhand to the left on the release of the arrow. This back-tension is build up at full draw, and is at the moment of releasing the arrow still tensed. This acts like a "pre tension" for a sideways motion of the bowhand. Pretensing is to me necessary to make this motion quick enough. It's purpose is to move the bow sideways, away from the arrow to avoid the arrows scratching on the arrowpass.

I hope that was not to confusing.

Now I want to add a sentence from the Hein/Kani book. On page 73, in the Chapter on aming (nazar) Hein wristes, what could be another description for this sidewaymotion:

"Hinzu kommt noch, dass die linke Hand unwillk?rlich die Abweichung des Pfeiles, die dadurch zustande kommt, dass der Pfeil nicht genau in der Richtung der zur?ckschnellenden Sehne liegt, korrigieren muss."
In English:
"Additionaly, the left hand must correct a sideway-deflection caused by the arrow resting not in line with the direction the bowstring-movement on the arrow-release."

I don't know if this is in the Turkish or original Version, too. This sentence is one of his points, why it is harder to aim with the turkish bow, than with a rifle. And ... well ... this point is a gem to me, not for the aiming troubles, but for the shootingtechnique.

I hope this helps.


Now to Bedes comment to the Swoboda Video.

This technique is closer to the Manchu way of holding the bow. It does have the advantage of teaching you to relax the index finger and thumb. Its disadvantage is that with the arrowhead being drawn right up to the grip in the Middle Eastern style there is an increased risk that you might tense the index finger into the path of the arrow. This I am assured is extremely painful. Also this grasp is more comfortable with the larger grips of Manchu/Chinese/Mongol bows.

Closer to Manchu? Interesting! Well ... I don't know Manchu-Technique very well ... but do You think so because of the stretched indexfinger? If so, I would agree for the indexfinger, which should be more folded with the hawk-claw-grip. The rest seems pretty "Turkish" to me.
And I don't think the straight indexfinger is a problem for Adam. He is tall and has long hands, so he must grasp the bow in an straighter line with the arrow then a shorter person. This makes the indexfinger parallel enough to avoid trouble. I would not recomend this straight finger too, but he can shoot with this "mistake".

[Bede]

The reason I made the comment about being closer to the Manchu grasp is because the thumb and the forefinger are almost parallel to the ground. This is clearly seen of some old photographs of Manchu archers. You can find them on the internet easily.

For a proper changal-i baz grasp, the arrow rests on the metacarpal of the thumb not on the thumb itself. Kani, when referring to it, is describing a variation meant for use with a siper and mushamma. This involves the mushamma separating the the middle and ring fingers and tightly clenching the thumb.

Hein did introduce his own ideas about archery into his work and Klopsteg criticises him for it several times, but they both made assumptions about shooting with a thumb ring that were based on the llimited information available to them at the time.

High speed photography, both of Japanese bows in action and pictures of me shooting Turkish style, shows that most movement in the hands occurs immediately after the arrow has left. I am not saying that they are consciously done, but the arrow is moving faster than the muscles can contract.

[Bede]

This is the relevant text from Saracen Archery.

grasp as before with the three appropriate fingers, but place the end of the thumb over the back of the middle finger... It will enable the archer to draw a longer arrow than is possible with any other kind of grasp┌ because the base of the thumb can then spread out,...

Though Taybugha concentrates on the advantages of the grasp for flight archery, the Persian manuals that have recently been translated show that it was used in general archery without overdrawing the arrow.

[MupKo]

If I understand well, during the draw lower part of palm is separated from grip, and after release three fingers press bow in palm rotating bow?

In my experience, sideways twist absolutely necessary to avoid fishtailing. I had my brother watching me shooting arrows of different spines and using different techniques and scoring fishtailing from 1 (none) to 5 (extreme fishtailing). Without sideways twist scores were 3-5, and with it 1-3. Arrow spine did not have so clear effect.

[MupKo]

If I understand well, during the draw lower part of palm is separated from grip, and after release three fingers press bow in palm rotating bow?

In my experience, sideways twist absolutely necessary to avoid fishtailing. I had my brother watching me shooting arrows of different spines and using different techniques and scoring fishtailing from 1 (none) to 5 (extreme fishtailing). Without sideways twist scores were 3-5, and with it 1-3. Arrow spine did not have so clear effect.