Grip Hand Technique Discussion: Khatra and Tenouchi

[Bede]

Putting a twist on a very low braced bow can avoid the problem of the arrow striking the arrow pass. This is common in Korean techniques. By twist I mean turning the bow is the hand so that the string is at a little more distance from the fore arm than a straight line to where the arrow will be at full draw. Carefully done, this can be a valuable technique.

The arrow striking the arrow pass can lead to horizontal fishtailing. Another cause is pressure against the side of the nock by the index finger. This can cause the arrow to bend slightly at full draw.

Vertical fishtailing can be caused by a nocking point that is wrong for the combination of the style of shooting and the balance of the bow limbs. sometimes the balance of the limbs is so far out that moving the pressure point of your grasp on the bow is necessary.

[Arry]

If I understand well, during the draw lower part of palm is separated from grip, and after release three fingers press bow in palm rotating bow?

To my understanding you are almost right. The pressure of the three lower fingers is build up even before the bow is drawn. This is the pre-loading of a force which then, as soon as release occurs, makes the bow dip or rotate forward. It would not be possible to rotate the bow with a conscious movement fast enough.

[Bede]

This is a correct understanding of the grasp. The three lower fingers are balancing the push from the area between the thumb and index finger while the bow is being drawn. When the string is released, the bow rotates forward. It is important to regulate the pressure to match the strength of the bow. With a light bow, too much pressure can cause the upper limb to bend too much. A person with very strong hands can do this too so you must make sure your pressure is appropriate.

[geoarcher]

How about this technique, specifically how the bow appears to rotate or spin around after release in the hand that the bow is held in:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udr1YOVtzQc

How is this achieved?

[Bede]

The bow is held at an angle to direction of drawing; as it is drawn the wrist is put under a lateral rotational pressure; on release the bow hand is relaxed as the bow rotates. This has an advantage with certain bows because the slight torsion in the bow hand seems to make the arrow clear the bow better. Chinese prints and paintings show the final position.

[geoarcher]

What type of grip is appropriate to achieve this? chagal-i-baz or does it have its own grip?

[Bede]

It is a Chinese style grip with the thumb resting on the side of the middle finger while the forefinger is extended. The Manchus used it too. The wrist is too high for the changal-i baz, but it has some of the same benefits. The torsion comes from the three lower fingers on the grip, but it isn't a conscious twist. Instead it is like the falcon's grip in using the natural dynamics of the hand and wrist. Yokhua's bow is particularly well suited for this technique.

[geoarcher]

For these grip hand techniques like chagal-i-baz and the one shown in the video I just posted, if I am not mistaken, pressure should be placed not against the plam of the hand, but in the area in between the thumb and index finger much the same as the methaphor goes when the ancient manusripts talk of 'holding and egg' as to how to hold the bow. Or are there exceptions to this?

I suspect the 'chinese' grip used in the video is perhaps similar to this?

http://www.kyudopfeile.de/frames.html

[Bede]

You are right to say that the pressure is taken on the part of the hand between the thumb and index finger. It depends on how high the wrist is. On a high wrist the pressure is taken mainly on the thenar eminence, usually on the side towards the centre of the palm. On a low wrist like the changal-i baz, the pressure is taken through the flesh running between the base of the thumb and the forefinger. This is why Kani says one should fold in the flesh towards the palm. It stops a ridge of tense skin forming in the upper area of contact with the belly of the grip.

The three lower fingers are responsible for the firmness of the grasp and coincidentally for the rotation of the bow as the arrow is released.

I think the holding of the grip like holding an egg has more than one meaning since it is sometimes used out of context. In reality, you can hold an egg in one way so that it cannot be crushed so the comment can mean correctly orienting the grip in the hand. It can also mean holding carefully so that pressure is not concentrated in any one spot which has several implications. I think it originated as advice before shaped grips (with a ridge on the back) were developed. The earlier straight oval sectioned grips could be held in ways that caused problems like the "internal draw" of Saracen Archery. This approach may be present in the origin Japanese grasp too since that bow has no matn.

[geoarcher]

I see, so it depends more on the wrist height regarding variation. I notice Korean archers are indeed placing the pressure against the thenar eminence but in the photos I've seen they are usually aiming 'high'. I know different types of shots will require different grips depending on what the desired end result is.

So just to be clear, in the video I posted, is the pressure against the thenar eminence or upper portion of the hand between the thumb and index finger? When I see people do this technique, it doesn't always appear so clear and it looks like at times they pace pressure against the thenar eminence and then sometimes 'against the flesh'.

[Arry]

I know different types of shots will require different grips depending on what the desired end result is.

If you vary your bow hand grip, I think achieving continuity will be really difficult. I would go for one bow hand grip which works for you (ie, moves the handle out of the arrow's way and ensures clean arrow flight) and then just aim corresponding to the distance...

[Bede]

It appears to me that Yokhua is using the thenar eminence, but that is only an observation. Depending on the size of the bow grip and the individual shape of his palm, it might be slightly different.

The Koreans are nearly always shooting at 145 metres so that the slight aiming upwards is normal. Considering the light weight of some of their bows and the size of the arrows, the elevation of the bow hand is much less than you would need in most other styles of shooting.

Another thing to be said about modern Korean bows is that their feel is always much lighter than they really are. This is a subjective experience. Although I mainly shoot in a Middle Eastern style, I often use Korean bows because of their efficiency. The Korean bowyers have made a good compromise between a traditional shaped bow and the performance characteristics of modern materials. Looking at some of the bows I have seen this year, it seems to me that rapid progress is being made in other parts of the world too. For cost reasons, the majority of traditionally minded archers are going to use bows of modern materials; it's good to see that the bowyers are putting the extra effort into making better bows.

On the subject of grasps, it is good to shoot with one standard grasp that feels right and works well for you, but it does come in handy to know others well enough to use them in case of a hand injury or the chance to shoot an unusual bow.

[geoarcher]

Looking at some of the bows I have seen this year, it seems to me that rapid progress is being made in other parts of the world too. For cost reasons, the majority of traditionally minded archers are going to use bows of modern materials; it's good to see that the bowyers are putting the extra effort into making better bows.

I know I'm very pleased with my Mariner. My Golhan Turk I enjoy too. I'm trying to get a longer Hwarang as we speak. Are there any other synthetic makers you would recommend specifically?

On the subject of grasps, it is good to shoot with one standard grasp that feels right and works well for you, but it does come in handy to know others well enough to use them in case of a hand injury or the chance to shoot an unusual bow.

Agree though I am still trying to figure out what's best for me plus perfect certain grips. I know pressure in the right spots is the key to getting these right and a achieve a 'true' rotation. I think its good though to learn as much as one can.

[geoarcher]

I'd like to re-awaken this discussion with a few questions: I keep hearing about 'sideways Khatrah'. Where is that discussed exactly? Is it Saracen archery? Or is the source some other Arab and or Persian one? Many who practice this seem to suggest that 'sideways Khatrah' actually does effect the arrow but does it really?

[Amarutu]

'Sideways khatra' is just a trending word roaming through social media.
Whenever I ask a person directly talking about it, their response was always sth like: "Oh I just saw a Youtube-video." While not even remembering which one of course. Tbh it seems to me these people just like the word khatra. You can see many ways it is written as well. The more consonants one combines with another 'h' the better. I get you have to compensate for the Arabic letters (of the word خَطْرَةٌ) with no counterpart in Latin letters.
The argument in using the word khatra on social media for any thinkable bow-hand-motion is a perfectly possible translation of the Arabic word to the word "follow through." And with the variety of bow-hand-motions all now going by the word khatra, I've given up on finding any source beside Taybugha ("Saracen Archery"). It seems to me the word khatra is mistaken for another and shorter word for followthrough. And I perfectly get a shorter word is easier to use. But just because khatra is some sort of a follow through doesn't mean any form of follow through is the same as the khatra-follow-through. Just like a tree is a plant but not all plants are trees.
With the "trending word" roaming through the internet - anyone tries to hop on that particular hypetrain. Sometimes for clickbait-reasons, sometimes for other reasons.
But to be clear: Khatra is clearly described as a forward rotation of the bow in the bowhand in Saracen Archery.