Draw Length from Mediterranian to Thumb Ring Release?

[kirkerik]

Hello All,

I'm new here and happy to be part of the learning! Thank You!

I have been shooting now for a couple of years with the mediterranean release and have been workng on establishing my draw length and anchor point. I am currently drawing ~30" or 760mm. My draw length varies maybe a 1/2" or 13mm +\- and i would like to lock it down better.

I would like to change to or at least try the thumb ring release. I am naturally anchoring under my jaw on my trachea/throat with split three fingers. For various clues I have been realizing these past couple years that i may have an inclination towards the thumb release!

I would like to know what to expect for draw length with the change to thumb ring. Could it be over 32"/813mm +?? I have practised with out a bow (i do not have one that draws far enough) and it feels natural to anchor with my index fingers first knuckle under my ear lobe on the rear corner of my jaw bone. Im getting about 1"/25mm increase.

I do not have a bow light enough to try yet but am thinking of an old solid 60"/1520mm fiberglass bow to try. Can a bow like this be drawn to 32-33"/838mm??

I do not wish to make the same mistake i made in the beggining: I bought a very short bow at first and it limited my draw length for a year or so.

I am considering a Mariner Ming Moon 6 with a max draw of 32"/813mm. The longer bow, Ming Moon 1 max 34" draw is a bit too long for my liking.

Kirk

[mongolianarcher]

Tips I have gained from my experience:
1. Do not have a long draw length just for the sake of a long drawlength.
-Consistency is everything; use a drawlength that can be replicated time after time after time again.
2. Closer to the eye, the better.
-The closer your draw is to your eye the more easy to aim. Therefore, draw closer to your cheek or in line with your earlobe. And drawing to your throat or shoulder is novel, but oftentimes encourages bad form and will make it very hard for you to be consistent which creates accuracy. And by accuracy I mean the ability to hit a target from over 75 meters in a 3ft radius, multiple times.
3. Keep your elbow high.
-In all the old paintings of eastern archers they have high elbows when they drew back..that is because that is proper form and utilizes your back muscles. When you draw with your elbow parallel to the ground or pointing down, you are using your bicep and arm muscles and not opening up your back. Many Korean archers are guilty of this because they have such low drawweights. Once the weights are raised, then proper technique is a must. Therefore...
3a. ROLL your drawing shoulder into position and draw IN THE BOW.
-Watch how the English Warbow archers shoot. They are shooting historical weights and use a form that is conducive to actual authentic, time-tested style. Turkish archers are also the best teachers.
This is the perfect way to open your back muscles and to roll your shoulder into position, keeping your arms parallel with the arrow and the target as opposed to having the arrow not in line.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KVYF2AU3mE

For more info, go to Gokmen's site and check up how he explains good drawing form, it is great:
turkishflightarchery.blogspot.com

These steps that help you to achieve efficiency, speed of draw, and ease of replication separates you from the mere imitators and puts you into the category of a true marksman. Any archer can hit a target from 50m rather consistently with varying drawlengths to their chest with a child's bow weight and be called "accurate". But when you start raising the bow weights and lengthening the distance from the target, then you start realizing that Asian archery can be as technical if not more so than Western archery. It isn't as whimsical as people assume.

[kirkerik]

Yes, I agree Mongolianarcher and thank you for the very informative response.

1) I have much to learn but i have been doing my best to have proper form and alignment with the arrow. I agree completely with the below quote from Moebow on Tradgang.com:
"...draw length should not be arbitrary. It should be the result of alignment at full draw, and I like to favor "bone on bone" alignment. Your facial references for your string hand are a RESULT of the draw, NOT a target OF the draw."

I understand it is a tendency for archers to overdraw but i seem to have always naturally anchored under the jaw. It is what feels best. I like to shoot instinctively and feel that anchor but it's challenging and tends to be inconsistent. Practice, practice... When the moment counts i want my shot sequence to be automatic and natural.

I admit in the begining i liked the idea of a bit longer draw length but honestly i wish now i was NOT drawing to 30" with three fingers. It makes finding a western bow that does not stack too soon harder. And then arrows with the thumb draw, not much available over 32". i'll have to go with bamboo but bamboo, that's a good thing.

2) I dream of consistent accuracy. Your right. Ithink the thumb draw can get me closer to my earlobe but i "naturally" draw a little lower. I am not sighting down the arrow, i am staring at my target and shooting. In other words, i can practice with the arrow closer to my eye but when i don't "think" about the shot i go to my "natural" anchor. Your thoughts? If i practice something that i'm forcing, my concern if im hunting or not thinking about it i may default to my old ways.

I definately want to be accurate at longer distances! I enjoy distance shooting.

3)Im glad to hear it! I have had a naturally high elbow since i started. Another reason to go to a thumb ring for me. I have been able to get it down with the more western style of shooting while working on the alignment of the arrow, arms, string elbow, and hands etc.

Maybe i should clear up my original intentions. I started this thread to find out how i may practice the thumb draw and have a bow with a long enough draw to be safe and encourage proper form. I do have a smaller budget so i was hoping a simple fiberglass bow would suffice for now. Do they safely draw to 31-32" or more?

I do not really know where im going to be with the thumb draw, and maybe i could settle back down to a shorter draw. I hope to find a solid anchor where my draw length is right and aligned, wherever that may be.

Thank you for the great knowledge and your experience!

Kirk

[mongolianarcher]

Well, I think the best "CHEAP" alternative to be able to practice at your natural draw is to buy a mid-quality, but authentic, Kaya Korean bow, which are reasonably priced and draw to 33 or for you to buy a Mariner bow.
And I suggest that you buy his Manchurian or his Han bow since the longer tips allow for more consistent shooting, which you want.

And by the way...the job of practice is to deconstruct and reconstruct your technique so if you honestly don't want that longer draw, you CAN create a new one for yourself, one that works in all situations.

I did this myself because I also liked to draw to my throat but I realized when I shot 10 yards away from the target that I could shoot Tylenol-sized targets from that distance when I drew in the earlobe/cheekbone/lip line. It just produced better results.

So what I did was (and still do) shoot at my target everyday for 30mins to an hour from 10 feet away and do it at a moderate speed, consciously drawing the way that I wanted to draw, until one day it came naturally and I slowly was able to do this faster and faster. Now I can shoot 3 arrows in under ten seconds by using the Turkish method of having extra arrows in your draw hand...(I hate holding extra arrows in my bow hand, it feels awkward and it hurts my hand when they vibrate when I shoot an arrow).

So like anyone that is relearning how to walk after dealing with a limp for years, you also can reteach yourself how to draw, should you wish.

As to your arrows, go to 3riversarchery and the perfect arrows are the Goldtip carbon expedition hunter arrows and they come in 32"...get them in their lowest spine 35-55.

If you really would like some bamboo arrows I could make some for you. I am getting a shipment of arrows that are 39" long and I cut them to 32 or 33, or even lower depending on the archer. But the carbons are a much more economical solution, and of course they cost way less. But nothing beats the feel of "living" arrows

And anymore questions, just PM me and I'll send you my working email so we could talk more about technique if you want. Lukas Novotny gave me some tips that have helped over the years. And also I suggest that you buy the English version of Adam Swoboda's Thumbring archery book. It is a must-have.

[KenH]

For a really "inexpensive" bow to practice on, check out some of the Horsebows and other designs being made by my friend Tim Piatek. Check out his Golden Horde Bows Blog:

http://goldenhordebows.blogspot.com/

Yes, they're made from PVC. But they certainly don't look it. They are great looking, fine shooting, inexpensive (under $100 usually) bows available in whatever draw weight you want. For a few dollars more, Tim is making some absolutely beautiful Ottoman style bows with traditional painted decoration.

[Bede]

Keep your elbow high.
-In all the old paintings of eastern archers they have high elbows when they drew back..that is because that is proper form and utilizes your back muscles. When you draw with your elbow parallel to the ground or pointing down, you are using your bicep and arm muscles and not opening up your back. Many Korean archers are guilty of this because they have such low drawweights. Once the weights are raised, then proper technique is a must.

Most old paintings from Persia show the drawing arm elbow either in line with the drawing hand or in line with the shoulder. This is in agreement with Arabic, Persian and Turkish manuals. There are a significant number of Turkish miniature paintings with the drawing elbow high. In shooting, this is usually the result of trying to use a bow that has too short a draw length for the archer.

I think that drawing with the elbow high creates the need to adjust the wrist to keep the hand in line with the arrow introducing an unnecessary stress. The upper arm is out of line with the shoulders weakening the strength of the draw. I agree that the biceps should not be used, but the shoulder and back muscles should be pulling the upper arm into a stable position. There has to be a little play otherwise the movement of the shoulder blades will not complete the release. A low elbow is a definite fault since it has no advantages and usually signals that the arrow is too long for the archer.

In general, it is best to keep the drawing hand metacarpals in the same plane as the arrow and both elbows as near as possible in line with the shoulders. Neither shoulder should be higher than the other. The Turks wrote that the upper part of the forearm should be tightly press against the lower part of the upper arm. This isn't done by contracting the biceps which would swell and get in the way but by the back muscles pulling back the upper arm. There is an old tradition that you should be able to balance a cup of water on the hand and not spill a drop when you release. This is an indication of the even and balanced nature of the draw.

The Korean archers I have watched shoot in person varied in skill like any group of archers, but it is important not to confuse an individual failure to shoot well with a generic weakness in a style of shooting. Most modern Korean target bows are light weight compared to war bows, but that is true of all practical target bows. Korean war bows were very heavy and their style worked well with them. Target bows are sometimes made in 80 and 90 pound weights and I used to have an 80 pound one. At 28 inches, I drew it to the lobe of my ear with the forearm in line with the arrow and the elbow slightly above the line of the shoulder but not elevated. At 31 inches, I drew it with the elbow in line with the shoulders and the drawing hand behind the ear. In both cases the arrow touched the corner of my mouth. During the draw, the arrow and the forearm of the drawing hand formed a straight line. The biceps was hardly used except to keep things aligned. The drawing strength comes from the back at all times. At full draw with the longer arrows, the forearm sloped slightly down to the elbow and the back of the palm of the hand was horizontal from the wrist to the knuckles.

With a well executed draw, the difference between a heavy bow and a very heavy bow is how quickly you get tired. This is for bows within your strength. Incidentally, trying to draw a heavy English longbow is not a good indication of your strength. Compared to most Asian bows, they stack dramatically towards the last part of the draw. Also drawing a bow that you are uncertain of increases the effort. If you think the bow is going to twist, you are more likely to move the bow hand shoulder into the wrong position.

If I misunderstood your comment, I'm sorry. Gokmen does not have a particularly high shoulder position in the clip and his movement is using his shoulders effectively. If you consider he has a high position, then look at some Olympic archers: they are much higher by comparison. There are some Turkish miniatures from the time of Sultan Suleiman which show this extreme position. I have wondered if this is the second last stage of a mefruk draw.

[mongolianarcher]

Paintings show the high elbow draw, such as shown on this page of Gokmen's archery blog
http://turkishflightarchery.blogspot.ie ... awing.html

And I have seen Mughal paintings that have had the elbows come upward almost like an Olympian shooter.

And having a horizontal elbow as opposed to a high elbow makes the line of the arrow come to the side as opposed to be in line with your shoulders.

When you hold it at your right shoulder, the arrow nock is literally to your side, or if you try to make them aligned (and saying this is a heavier bow) your bow hand would then be pulled to the right and twist would be made on the limbs causing string oscillation.

Also having this more "in-line" vector (as opposed to having the arrow to the side of your center line rather than in the middle of it) allows your release of the drawhand to snap backwards like a snake forming a 90 degree angle almost, as opposed to "plucking" the string causing oscillation and bad arrow flight.

Therefore it is better to draw initially with a higher elbow (as opposed to the horizontal or low one) in order to have a more accurate shooting.

[Bede]

Luke,
The diagrams on that page are incorrect. I just spent the day looking through the Suleimanname and several other major Turkish and Persian manuscripts. The high elbow position is rare and usually associated with a high draw hand.

The problem with your theory is that it contradicts all the major contemporary archery manuals from the Middle East and North Africa. This is not to mention East Asian practice with its longer draws. There are several modern proponents of the high elbow position, but it is usually associated with other faulty techniques.

In the Suleimanname, there is an illustration of an archery contest in the presence of the sultan where a line of archers are shown in several stages of drawing and releasing. The elbow is only high at the initial stage of the draw. Particularly in Turkish miniature painting, there is a cavalier attitude taken to archery equipment with the same person being right handed or left handed in different miniatures and with the the bow case and quiver worn on different sides depending on the symmetry of the composition. Whereas they are known for their attempts to represent topography and ethnic costumes, Ottoman miniatures are not realistic.

We could have a long discussion on the methods of representation used in Turkey, Iran and Moghul India, but it is not about archery. The objects are paintings, not photographs, and they can only give you a general guide to what's going on. The way they were produced led to the repeating of forms with the details changed for the current painting. A figure could be flipped from right to left for a symmetrical effect in the composition and, if the artist was interested, he might changed the sides the sword and quiver are worn on or leave one or both where they are. Individual figures or poses can be reused over generations and when you read studies of Turkish painting it is clear that there were genres of figures where individual ones could be chosen for effect. These paintings were not drawn from life.

Getting back to arm and shoulder position, you are pushing with the bow hand and pulling with the draw hand. The bow hand arm and shoulder are rigid and the drawing hand is pulled back by the back muscles acting on the upper arm. As the arrow nock comes back to the earlobe, it comes in close to the face. It is not hanging out in the air as the diagram shows. The wrist turns horizontally so that the proximal knuckle of the thumb touches the earlobe in passing. The main effect in the drawing arm is felt at the elbow which acts like a suspension point for the forearm. The head is turned towards the target bringing the chin over the left collarbone. This is what allows the drawing hand to come in close to the line of the shoulders. Since the arrow sits on the highest point of the bow hand, it can be inclined slightly upward at full draw.

[Jake Levi]

A very intereesting discussion.

There is a real difference between far east archery and the mid east.

And there are a wealth of you tube videos showing the correct technique of drawing and shooting for both.

Myself, I prefer the Chinese and Mongolian styles of bows and shooting. In which a higher drawing arm is used then in Turkish style.

So, I think it is best to look , research and decide which style of archery a person prefers because as I said there is a wealth of videos available to demonstrate the correct techniques of your particular favorite.

Myself I have a long history of pulling to my ear, with self bows and now Asian bows. This is what feels natural to me, and I will continue with it. The Mariner bows are excellent, if, you want to shoot Asian style, if, you prefer Turkish type then better to check out the Kassai, Grozer and others.

Luke your short range shooting is exactly what Fred Asbell talks about in his two books on instinctive archery shooting. They are available through Primitive Archer mag.

[kirkerik]

Thank you all for these informative responses and links!

I will have to say first that i do understand that archery is a path of both applying knowledge, form, alignment, and drawing with the proper back muscles. I do work on my form constantly (maybe too much) as archery is a path and not so much a goal.

Having said that, i am drawing to around 30" anchoring at my throat with three fingers. I understand it depends on what style i adopt but given proper form and alignment with back tension approximately where will i be with the thumb draw? Maybe there are too many variables to say but if my arms, back and hands are in the same posistion (aligned properly), is the difference just from the tips of my three fingers to my thumb? I presume by practicing in the mirror that imay anchor (thumb draw) with the proximal knukle of my index finger behind the curve of my jaw and under my earlobe, which is even farther back.

I may move my anchor point up to knock point at earlobe as Lucas and Bede suggested but regardless the draw length should remain very close to the same than if it was lower below the earlobe.

In other words what draw length bow to get as i wish to optimize the dynamics of the bow. Too short is too short and too long is well, too long. I may be alright with a 32" draw but perhaps 33" is safer?

Also, what makes the longer siyah bows more consistent? The stability the extra weight offers? I really like the Mariner Ming Moon bows!

Thanks,
Kirk

[kirkerik]

i should also say, i believe draw length is the result of proper form and alignment within a given style. No? Anchor point is a result of that alignment and not some arbitrary goal. Perhaps MoeBow said it best in my second post.

so Based on my bodys proportions and given proper alignment, that puts my fingers (mediteranean) at my throat. How could they be elsewhere? (other than variables in bow grip)

kirk

[mongolianarcher]

Right Kirk, it is not arbitrary, it is the creation of a good technique, as I said in my first post.

Additionally, Justin Ma told me this in an email once:

For me, "accurate" can describe an archer. Bows themselves can't be accurate. But they can be "stable" or "forgiving" (that is, having high resistance to torsion) in addition to being "fast". Any of the 4th--13th c. AD non-contact recurves (with long, backward swept siyahs) will give you the best torsional stability and hence be the more forgiving (i.e., less likely to torque dramatically on a bad release). Of Chinese bows in this genre, there's the Khotan bow, any of the Tang and Song Dynasty bows, as well as early Yuan dynasty bows.

--This is what I meant in reference to longer siyahs.

Jake I agree that there is a wealth of info online showing a variety of forms; and I suppose that Asbell watched me shoot one day and wrote his books. (just kiddin)

And Bede, thank you Bede for correcting my misinformation. By "head turned toward target" you mean that in longer drawlengths the head is facing the target directly as opposed to being oblique to it, correct?

f

[Jake Levi]

One thing that both styles do have in common is having the eyes on the target through the whole proces, from nocking to after the release. Besides using a bow that is the main thing that they have in common. With NEVER 'thowing the bow' as you see in the movies, Lord of the Rings and Troy are prime examples of what not to do, thanks to one actors total ignorance of archery.

But, to go back to what was posted, good advice from all, BUT, to apply it, know what style that you want to pursue. Because each style is evolved for the design of the bows of that type of archery. Shorter bows and longer bows.

The style of shooting used for a Turkish flight bow going for distance is different from that of shooting a Mongol Bow at the Naadam Festival in Ulan Bator in July.

Identify which type of archery appeals to you and then choose one of the many many replicas to learn and practice your choice with. There really is a plethora of classic learning videos on Youtube. I am still discovering ones I had missed and right now have dozens on Chinese Archery, and more on Mongolian.

There are some common differences, but these become clearer as you study the correct styles of the masters that you can watch.

[mongolianarcher]

I understand what you are saying. But what do you mean by "thowing the bow"?

[Jake Levi]

" Throwing the Bow" is a phrase from self bow and primitive archery, correct form is holding the bow steady after the hand releases the nocked arrow. A bad habit of many beginners and some who should know better is 'pushing the bow forward' at release. This insures an inaccurate shot. The now classic examples of this are by one of the lead actors in the movies Troy and Lord of the Rings who badly throws the bow in every shot. His shooting form is horrible. Obviously every shot he does is of him only and never where the arrow went.