What did the Dacian/Transylvanian bows look like?

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Derek Hobart
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What did the Dacian/Transylvanian bows look like?

Post by Derek Hobart » Tue Jan 31, 2006 2:01 am

Does anyone have any good information on bows used by the Dacians or later, the people of Transylvania?

My first assumption would be something similar to the Magyars, but the Carpathian Mtns. would have separated them.

Some of my ancestors are from Romania from the Transylvanian region. I thought it would be interesting to do some research, but I've come up empty. :(

Can anyone help me out? Any information on the Wallachians or Moldavians would be appreciated as well.

Derek
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Stephen Selby
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Post by Stephen Selby » Tue Jan 31, 2006 2:48 am

This is just a guess, because I've seen no specific material: they may have used a Hunnish type like the Avars until the time of conflict with the Turks, in which case Turkish designs might have come onto the scene. This pattern is roughly that of East Europe/Balkans in general.

But with Moldova - and Iasi in particular - having been a sophisticated cultural centre for so long, I doubt whether bows have been common for many centuries. Crossbows, more likely.

S.
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Bede
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Post by Bede » Wed Feb 01, 2006 12:18 pm

During the period of the Dacian kingdom, the Sarmatians were allies of the Dacians in their fight against Rome.

The whole area was probably affected by the movements of the tribes during the Migration Period with the effect Stephen mentioned.
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Zoran Pavlovic
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Post by Zoran Pavlovic » Sat Feb 25, 2006 6:12 pm

For my knowledge very good presentation of the composite bows from the territory of Romania is an image of the bow used by the soldiers of Basarab the Ist against Magyar(Hungarian) calvary in the scene of the Battle of Posada in 1330. Image is part of ``Vienna Painted Chronicle``.I have no this image.
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Zoran Pavlovic
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Battle of Posada

Post by Zoran Pavlovic » Sat Feb 25, 2006 9:18 pm

Yes, i have this picture. You can see Wallachian archers at the first picture. Second one represents battle between Dacians and Romans. My opinion is that the bows which appears are similar to the scythian bows regarding their size.
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Zoran Pavlovic
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Post by Zoran Pavlovic » Sat Feb 25, 2006 9:25 pm

Sorry for the mistake. Wallachian archers from the Battle of Posada are at second picture.
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Russ Mitchell
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Post by Russ Mitchell » Tue Feb 28, 2006 4:32 pm

Complicated. Much more complicated than the official Daco-Roman continuity ideology professed by the Romanian state would like to acknowledge.

In the region, you will see extensive numbers of:
Byzantines/ east Romans
Sarmatians
Bulgars
Avars
Alans (Iranian peoples)
Pechenegs
Hungarians and Szekely
Cumans
Tatars

Every one of whom had an archery tradition involving the kind of bows we talk about here...

And, of course, Vlachs as depicted above. The Ottoman Turks are very late arrivals on this scene, but, of course, quite influential once the Tatars are finally pushed off the stage.

There are depictions of the "crab-footed" bow similar to Turkish or Crimean bows (look at the siyah angle at full draw on that bow!), which seem to be fairly common to the region, and particularly to the areas traditionally inhabited by Vlachs. This would be your best bet for a purely "Romanian" bow. Unfortunately, I'm not a bowyer, or else I'd try to make one.

Stephen: Moldovans were known as archers in the medieval period, not crossbowmen. The crossbow was around, but in this region much more rare than the bow.
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Post by Derek Hobart » Tue Feb 28, 2006 8:38 pm

Zoran-

Thank you for the pictures.

Russ-

I would not have guessed the influence of the early Iranians. I can see where all of the others come in to play. Where were the Cumans from? I'm not familiar with them.

Thanks,

Derek
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Post by Russ Mitchell » Wed Mar 01, 2006 6:08 pm

The Cumans are sort of the "elephant in the room" of medieval history that don't get talked about unless you're discussing Hungarian or Russian stuff. They're also known as Falben in German, Polovtsy in Russian, and are a, maybe THE major branch of the Kipqak Turks west of the Urals. Means "pale people," ... because they were very, very pale. Pretty good chance if you're Romanian that you've got some in your family tree somewhere. The Cumans were the dominant military group in the Balkans (and the absolute undisputed prime movers of Wallachia and Moldova until the rise of Tatar suzerainty) for most of the medieval period after the Pechenegs were done down and dirty -- and, contrary to Byzantine rhetoric, guess who did the job?... their interest was purely as military service to supplement their economy when its underlying animal husbandry base didn't require extensive labor (unlike most medieval armies, they actually preferred to campaign in winter). They can be found on campaign along with the Hungarians as far west as 14th-century Italy (when they were all over the place during the Neopolitan Succession Wars and employed occasionally with the Magna Societas Hungariae, a major merc company), and literally altered the course of history by single-handedly smashing the Fourth Crusade into oblivion at Adrianople in 1205, without which it is unlikely that the Byzantines could ever have recovered from the fall of Constantinople and the partition of the Empire.

In other words, their importance in medieval history is wildly underappreciated.

In terms of archery, you can see examples all over the Illuminated Chronicle, and their bows appear to be either the crab-foot or something like the Crimean Tatar job (which makes sense, since the Tatars were the amalgamation of the remaining Mongols with the Kipqak/Cuman locals). An associate of mine in Budapest has done extensive image analysis that shows, assuming all the standard artistic caveats, that they actually do not seem to have preferred to use the thumb-ring, but rather an adaptation on the "primary draw" with supporting fingers underneath the nock, though variations occur, and the article is not yet published.

(btw, if anybody knows a venue, we're working up an article that will not be solely archery-based, but will include it in some detail)
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Stephen Selby
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Post by Stephen Selby » Thu Mar 02, 2006 1:40 am

btw, if anybody knows a venue, we're working up an article that will not be solely archery-based, but will include it in some detail)
I'd be delighted to host your article here. ATARNites have wide interests, and all traditional archery is best understood against a historical back-cloth.
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Post by Derek Hobart » Thu Mar 02, 2006 9:24 pm

Russ-

That is fascinating history. Not knowing much about that time period or that region, you've sparked my interest in digging a little deeper into that whole dynamic. Thanks.

Derek
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Post by TZH » Mon Jul 31, 2006 1:31 pm

Hi!

In the Vienna Painted Chronicleare are bows painted in kitaj stile, ; there's just one bone plate on each siyahs, wich is laminated on the front side (not like on hungarian or other turk bows, there are two bone plates on the left and right side), after the wood part of the siyah ends, the wide bone goes some inches longer.

(and: in Moldva were living some decides long the Jazigh (in Hung. and in Rus.: j?sz; they and hungarian border soldiers builded the middle age paret of the town J?szv?s?r (Iasi))people, in the 1340's they moved to the Balkan and to Hungary; when the walachs of Radul occupied the whole Moldav. territory.)

so in the region lived Skita, sarmata, alan, hun, old bulgarian, (utrigurs, kutrigusr, saraugurs), avar, bulgarian, hungarian, sz?kely, pheceneg, okuz, uz, kipchak and mongolian mounted archer people.

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Bede
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Post by Bede » Tue Aug 01, 2006 4:54 am

Russ,
I know what you are talking about in regarding to the "crab footed bows", but it is an unhappy description.

A crab bow is an Indian style of bow with no pronounced angle between the recurved tip of the ear and the triangular-sectioned bass of the ear, which does have a pronounced angle between the bending part of the limb and the base of the ear.

The bows in the Balkan and other paintings are actually closer in shape to what is called a Sind bow. By that I mean that they have a setback handle, pronounced angles between the tip of the ear and the rest of the ear, and the base of the ear is at an angle to the bending part of the limb.

Two things affect that description. I am not saying that the unstrung profile is the same nor the underlying construction is similar.

There are more types of bow than just one in paintings in churches in Eastern and Southern Europe. The large number of different peoples that lived in and moved through Romania and the Balkans make sure that lots of different equipment was being used.

If you want diagrams to explain what I meant, I can do them in a few days.
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Post by ginni » Tue Mar 06, 2007 7:22 pm

Mungeni, reformed church, sec. XIV, King Ladislau and the cumans
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Post by Russ Mitchell » Tue Mar 06, 2007 7:30 pm

Bede wrote:There are more types of bow than just one in paintings in churches in Eastern and Southern Europe. The large number of different peoples that lived in and moved through Romania and the Balkans make sure that lots of different equipment was being used.

If you want diagrams to explain what I meant, I can do them in a few days.
Happy to see anything you can provide...
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