Any hints or help with using a Manchu thumb ring?

pcoutin · Post by **pcoutin** » Fri Jan 08, 2016 4:32 am

Thread in other forum: http://www.koreanarchery.org/punbb/viewtopic.php?id=627

I have a wooden manchu ring from seven stars trading I've tried to use. It just slips off or hurts a lot. I had tried securing it with paper towel inside earlier, which sort of worked. Still hurt a bit, not as comfortable as lipped rings with guards at all. But ended up ripping the skin off the sides of my thumb with a 50# bow. Perhaps it was TOO tight? Maybe it's a bit asymmetrical since I sanded it a lot, or not long enough. Or too short. I don't know. May post pictures later.

Maybe it is too short or small because i had to sand it down A LOT before it fit my thumb.

How do you avoid pain on the edge of the ring, with the string touching it?

Does the middle finger help keep the thumb ring from flying off? (like Adam Swoboda describes in the sample of the thumb ring book, to make a fist with middle/thumb/little fingers and press thumb against middle finger)

Is it that important to do the clockwise twist with the draw hand just to hold the ring in place, or just to keep the arrow in place?

Here Caesar said to keep the thumb straight... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OY2fjnCdRR0 but I bet the ring will just shoot out of my hand and hit something.

I was thinking of making bone or deer antler ring from dog chew, a hacksaw and a knife. Making the antler soft by boiling it? But the antler never arrived... waste of over $20.

But he does it with a jade ring, so it should be very possible with a wooden ring...

The guy who made them out of bamboo and PVC ended up with a really sore thumb, looks like necrosis (not relly :p). Must it be so painful?

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2340711

I feel like Turkish/Ottoman ring technique has the same advantage of not needing much strength to keep the thumb bent, and crisp release...

thanks

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Mon Jan 18, 2016 9:13 am

Here are some things that may be useful. Due to a lucky chance, more than half the old thumb rings I own fit me so I have been able to test original thumb rings rather than reproductions of doubtful accuracy. Mainly the Qing rings I have are jade or ivory with a few antler ones. There are two basic types: ones with thick sides and ones with thin sides. The degree of chamfer at each opening varies, but it does not have a great effect on their performance, but mainly on their comfort.

The basic technique is to position the ring so that the joint of the thumb is in the middle of the ring. If the ring fits you, the distal end of the ring should be somewhere near the base of your thumb nail. Then you bend your thumb until the ring is firmly locked. You should not be able to pull the ring off your thumb no matter how hard you pull with the other hand. Then you hook the ring around the string below the arrow. Push the ring against your middle finger and gently rest the index finger on the ring and the tip of your thumb. Slightly turn the hand so the index finger touches the arrow nock and draw the bow. At full draw, turn the wrist clockwise while opening the index finder. Do not straighten the thumb. That is clockwise from your view.

pcoutin · Post by **pcoutin** » Wed Jan 20, 2016 9:56 pm

I always moved and straightened the thumb away. This might be key. Thanks.

Do you prefer it to Turkish and guarded lip rings?

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Sat Jan 23, 2016 8:47 am

I find it is very good on long draws with heavy arrows. On light bows, you can see a little kick to the side on release, but not enough to be a real problem. I have shot with both thick and thin rings, both made of jade and antler. I haven't tried my old ivory rings, but the antler ones have the same shape and proportions. Generally they perform well and I haven't had any problems alternating between thick and thin strings.

Shooting shorter draws, I don't feel it has any advantages, but it still works. I have shot a Korean bow with a cylindrical thumb ring and had no problems. The disengagement of the ring is best explained on Peter Dekker's web site. http://www.manchuarchery.org/articles-manchu-archery This also describes the correct stances and has old photographs showing the thumb ring and bow in use.

pcoutin · Post by **pcoutin** » Sat Jan 23, 2016 10:49 pm

I've read Dekker's article a few times, but maybe not carefully enough..

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Tue Jan 26, 2016 12:25 am

When Peter and I first met, he hadn't seen Ku Ku's technique and was interested when I pointed out the method of wearing the cylindrical thumb ring that I had discovered in old photos and paintings. His subsequent research before and after meeting her greatly advanced our knowledge of Manchu archery techniques. He has continued to seek out old photographs and compare them with contemporary instructions for shooting.

What became clear was that with the very heavy bows the Manchus preferred, the most effective use of the cylindrical archer's ring had to used. The one so often illustrated in the West, where the ring sat right down on the proximal joint of the thumb, causes pain in the tendons running along the face of the thumb even with light bows. This I had experienced in my earlier experiments. Once I moved on to the "thumb bent inside the ring" method, I found that any bow I could draw, I could draw with a cylindrical thumb ring with ease.

pcoutin · Post by **pcoutin** » Tue Feb 02, 2016 8:36 am

Thank you Bede

I'll post pictures of my wood ring later, in 7 weeks, if I still have problems.. maybe it is too tight or small

Ralph · Post by **Ralph** » Thu Feb 18, 2016 6:29 pm

@ pcoutin

May be, you find some help here:

www.chinese-archery.de
http://chinese-archery.de/ausruestung-s ... ng-ban-zhi
http://chinese-archery.de/processabschnitte-und-aspekte (sections: "Einhaken"; Auzug; Ankern und Transfer; Expansion und Lösen).

And I think, a thumbring made of bone or anteler would be a better solution than one of wood (this is only fine for beginners an lower draw weigth). For more information about usable materials for manchurian thumb rings: http://chinese-archery.de/ausruestung/a ... aterialien.

I hope, the pictures explain enough, if you do not anderstand german language.

Ralph

SwordAndBuckler · Post by **SwordAndBuckler** » Thu May 05, 2016 10:45 pm

Hello. I joined just so I could answer where to buy a Manchu style thumb ring in case you are still looking as it's very hard to find one available for sale. I looked all over the Internet myself. Anyway I recently bought one from China through aliexpress which I think is a front for small businesses like Amazon. I did a search on the site for "archery ring". I bought mine from A. F. ARCHERY here is a link to the listing. http://m.aliexpress.com/item/32568473367.html

I received the ring, described as made of moose antler. It seems to have the correct shape and thickness and is made of antler or bone. The material is great whatever it is as it actually grips better when wet. You can specify the size you want in mm. Error on the side of too small. Mine was the size I asked but to small and I'm getting a smaller size next. I am still learning to use it.

Good luck

pcoutin · Post by **pcoutin** » Fri May 06, 2016 2:31 am

Awesome! Thanks! That's a pretty good price. I have been using a clamp and measuring tape to measure my thumb at the widest, seems to be around 21mm

SwordAndBuckler · Post by **SwordAndBuckler** » Fri May 06, 2016 3:05 am

I'd be careful and get one smaller than you think. You can enlarge it with sandpaper bur if it's too large it'll slip off. I ordered a 23 mm 1st then a 21 mm.

pcoutin · Post by **pcoutin** » Sun Jul 10, 2016 5:16 am

so I just remembered my old manchu ring. when it gets wet it gets more slipperly, it feels like it starts to slip with 30#. this is the most I can bend it. maybe it's too small or the concave bevel is not enough

May eventually get one of those bone rings... though Manchu bows aren't that appealing since they are longer and need heavy arrows, but they are more insensitive to small changes of draw length which sounds pretty good. I only need about 35.5" of draw length at most, checked with a pvc bow

From the wooden ring, I feel pressure on the side of my thumb joint (the left side of the joint when the thumb is seen from the nail side, right hand) and feels like I can't quite lock it by bending the thumb

Ralph · Post by **Ralph** » Fri Aug 12, 2016 11:15 am

@ SwordAndBuckler
What is the leather spacer for ? Something like this is not necessary. If you need this, the reason could be a mistake in your technique.

@ pcoutin

For the correct size / find the correct size look here please:

https://www.chinese-archery.de/ausruest ... oessentest

If you did find the correct size and have problems with using the ring / pressure problems the reasons are technical mistakes or to much poundage of the bow.

Please note: The string is not drawing because of a bended thumb !

Greetings

Ralph

pcoutin · Post by **pcoutin** » Thu Sep 08, 2016 8:46 am

Thank you very much for the link. English would be nice.. the automatic translation is not very good, but it is good info regardless

SwordAndBuckler · Post by **SwordAndBuckler** » Sun Nov 13, 2016 9:13 pm

Yes the leather spacer was because because I got a size a little bit too big so it slipped off my finger. The spacer allows me to use it. IT'S not ideal and I'll get a different size eventually. I'm still trying to get this technique down.