Hungarian bows an improvement over the Hun bow?

[Stephen Selby]

There could be a number of reasons for the two horns of an animal to grow unevenly; but mostly they should match well. (I exclude from this comment those animals that shed their antlers each year.)

If they are uneven, it is not to do with "handedness" (though animals definitely have it.) It is more likely to be the result of a sickness or disability causing uneven blood flow to each side of the skull. Physical injury to the horn root when the animal is young could also be a cause.

[Bede]

Stephen,
I agree. The health of the individual animal has a lot to do with how the horn develops. There are also congenital and genetic abnormalities.

David Betteridge did some unpublished tests of the compressibility of various types of horn. When reduced to standard sizes samples, they all behaved pretty much the same. However, an unhealthy animal with poorly developed horns probably would not have produced samples thick enough to test.

Klopsteg quoted Kani as saying that horns with surface abnormalities should be avoided.

[redhawk]

.......Maybe we need a physicist for to explain the sense of an asymmetrical bow-design.
Due to my actual research on different kinds of greek hornbows I could observe a problem when using the inner circle of a horn. This part of the horn has a steeper cross-section. For to make your horn-strip, you have to flatten it, but cause to the steeper cross-section you cut more growth-rings and this seems to provocate small splints along the bow-limb.
You can fill these splints with hide-or fishglue and there seems to be no impact on the performance of the bow. Time will tell.
I would say this happens to every 3rd of these hornstrips.

Michael

[jack farrell]

Stephen; If I may return to the Sakian/Xinjiang bow you mentioned. Are you refering to the Khotan bow? How are you arriving at the preliminary date?

To others, we are refering to Sakas because they were contemporary enemies and neighbors of the Chinese Hunns. -j-

[Stephen Selby]

Stephen; If I may return to the Sakian/Xinjiang bow you mentioned. Are you refering to the Khotan bow? How are you arriving at the preliminary date?

No, Jack. The Khotan bows were late Han to Jin (c. 300CE)

These bows from the Yanghai burial are much earlier. In form, they are very close to the bows on the Kul' Oba Goblet. Some scholars consider that the people in these busrials were the Yuezhi, who had many cultural contacts with the Western Zhou and are also linked to the Scythians and speakers of the language now termed 'Tokharian'.

I am planning to publish on the Yanghai bows; but as a condition of participating in the study, I need to offer my article to the Turfan Cultural Relics Bureau first.

S.

[raygun]

Here is an interesting article on why the Japanese adopted an asymmetrical design in their yumi. But I wonder if the benefit of a stronger grip and control is offset by being top heavy?

Article: http://eclay.netwiz.net/translat/kyudo.htm

[MJuingong]

For most of the asymmetrical bows (yumi excepted), the asymmetry of limbs allows the nock of the arrow to be at precisely the center of the string. Is that a factor in arrow speed and/or stability?

[raygun]

I do not know the exact reason, but I've manipulated two picture from Grozer's website (I hope Mr. Grozer wouldn't mind...); one of the asymmetric Hun and one of the symmetric Hungarian to see how it affects the way we hold the bow.

For the Hungarian you can see that if we nock the arrow in the exact geographic center of the bow, we will have to hold the lower portion of the handle and quite possibly on to the limb as well.




But for the Hun, the asymmetrical design puts the geographic center at the upper end of the handle and at an angle not unlike the handling of the yumi. I guess this is more comfortable ergonomically. Maybe the Huns saw this problem as well?



cheers
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[Andrew Hall]

Raygun, MJuingong, The approximation of the river Gogops bow I made a couple of years ago has the arrow passing the bow at the half way point. The bow shoots without any inaccuracy or handshock. The asymmetric bows from Niya (M3 and M8 burials) could probably have been held so that the arrow passed mid-way between the tips, but I doubt that this is true for all the Hunnic style bows (for instance the Yingpan M19 bow is probably too asymmetric). A wide range of asymmetric designs can be made to work if tillered correctly and the nocking point adjusted suitably. I have shot a completely untillered branch by holding it off-centre towards the thick end.

Stephen, If the Tanghai bows are close to the artwork on the Kul' Oba goblet, it sounds like the bows are shorter than the Scythian style finds from Subeshi. I will be interested to read more about them.

[Jaroslav]

There is no reason to have arrow pass in exact middle of the bow. I think that to have a main vector of presure against bowhand is more important.


Jaroslav

[jack farrell]

Sakian Asymmetric prototype, 1 year ago. Bamboo back, Sabinal Cedar belly.

[Bede]

Andrew,
I think Stephen was talking about the general shape rather than the relative sizes of the bows with Kul Oba. The famous vase painting of Herakles and his remarkably asymmetric bow comes to mind too. Until the Xinjiang discoveries, many people thought that the bows was distorted by badly drawn perspective. Now the exaggeration does not seem so extreme.


It is interesting that you held your untillered branch near the thick end. I did the same thing in reverse by trying to find a point where the thinner upper part of the limb bent the same distance as the stiffer lower part. Of course I had to hold it thick end up.

[raygun]

Hmm... I've always thought that notching the arrow dead center of the string will give the most balance and efficient energy transfer.... maybe that's not the case or the difference so small it wouldn't really matter?

Andrew and Jack, great looking bows!

[Bede]

The centre of the string does not always coincide with the point where the limbs are balanced. Even when the perfect position is found, you can usually still have reasonable performance by moving the nocking point upwards. If you move it downwards you risk the nock end of the arrow striking the hand, which deflects the arrow and wastes part of its energy.

It is also possible to shoot an unbalanced bow, by which I mean one where the bow has to move in relation to the hand to keep its tips in synchronisation. Usually you see this when the bow handle appears to tilt foward when it is at full draw. This happens when the lower limb is stronger than the upper.

[Orda Khan]

I have used both Hungarian and Hun designs by Grozer and Kassai. The Hun definitely offered the best performance

.....Orda