Problems with cattle sinew

Tomaz · Post by **Tomaz** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 4:53 pm

I've just been experimenting with a big batch of cattle sinew (neck tendons). It was dried it in the air and I tried to pound it today for the first time. The tendons have dried pretty nicely and are very hard. But once I pound them they don't break into fibers of any length. Instead, they just to crumble into short, flat strands.

I'm not sure whether there is something wrong with my sinew or whether there is a problem with cattle neck tendons in general so any advice would be appreciated. Even if the sinew turns out to be useless for backing a bow, I'm hoping I can at least make some sinew glue out of it.

nordbogen · Post by **nordbogen** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 7:17 pm

May be you crashed them with hard hits. I use a hard plastichammer for this job. But on the other way I had problems with horsetendons too. I didn`t hit them too hard. This was not my first attempt, so I could be sure that I did my job o.k.
Try another one. You seem to have enough.
Back sinew is longer as leg sinew. I use the backsinew for wraps and only as an "emergency" resuorce.It is expansive and because of todays slaughter methods very rare to get.
Regards from Northgermany

Tomaz · Post by **Tomaz** » Sat Sep 02, 2006 6:46 am

Thanks for the tip. It is possible that I used too much force. I pounded the sinew lightly at first but the progress was frustratingly slow. I may have ended up hitting much harder than I should, especially with my experience as an amateur blackmsith kicking in. So I guess I will just give it another try.

Interestingly though, I can get cattle neck tendons easily here, directly from a butcher who runs a small slaughterhouse.

johnny.winter · Post by **johnny.winter** » Sat Sep 02, 2006 7:34 am

Hi Tomaz, if the butcher cuts out the neck tendons for you then he probably will cut leg sinew as well if you ask him nicely;-)
Neck tendons might work but i would stick to proven material if available. It?s frustrating sinewing a bow with short pieces of tendon only - takes hours and the result is not as good as with longer pieces.

Tomaz · Post by **Tomaz** » Sat Sep 02, 2006 9:45 am

Well, Payne-Gallwey states that neck tendons were used in Turkish bows and Klopsteg also speculates about that a bit. Also, the neck tendons as such are longer than the leg tendons. But despite my efforts I still can't get sinew of any length out of it. After more than 30 minutes of work this morning all I got were a few strands no longer than 8 cm at best.

Reto · Post by **Reto** » Sat Sep 02, 2006 6:28 pm

Reading the original scripts by J. Hein in German, he did not mention neck tendons being used by the Turkish bowyers. He stated: "Achilles Tendons" from the cows were used for flight-bows, whereas Achilles Tendons from oxes were used for war bows. The best tendons were the ones near Konstantinopel (Istambul) 1).

Please be aware Klopsteg copied and translated Hein into English and because he had excellent skills and know-how about bow-making and archery he added up comments. I doubt whether the turkish bow-makers used neck tendons for their superior bows.

Best regards
Reto

1) Source: Original script by H. Hein, "Natual Science in Islam", page 96

Michal · Post by **Michal** » Sat Sep 02, 2006 9:08 pm

Well i know that discussion goes about cattle sinews, but may i ask one generall questions?
1)Do you think, or know, if freezing will destroy sinews? One farmer kindly offered me ostrich sinews for free, but they wants to freeze them after butchery.
2)What type of ostrich sinews do you think are useable (from legs only?)
Because they asks sinews from how many otstriches will be enough.
Thanks to all coments.
M.

Tomaz · Post by **Tomaz** » Sun Sep 03, 2006 7:50 am

Yes Reto, though there are a few other clues in Payne-Gallwey's treatise and also this passage from Klopsteg, p. 126:

"Gallwey states that the neck tendons of cattle were used by the Turks. Kani says it was the Achilles tendon. Kani is probably right; he "was there", and his knowledge came at first hand, whereas Gallwey was wrong in other matters. However, Gallwey relates that when he dissolved the material in the backing of a Turkish bow in hot water, he obtained a great many short pieces, 2 to 3 inches long and an eighth inch in diameter, "as ductile as India rubber". The ability to stretch like rubber distinguishes the neck tendon from the leg tendon. Possibly some Turkish bowyers used neck tendon."

Now, I'm not sure what to think of it. My experience with neck tendon is exactly the same as described by Payne-Gallwey and Klopsteg (short bundles, very rubber-like when wet). I'm not at all sure if it is any good to back a bow and I will certainly try to get leg sinew instead. But still, it may have been used in some bows as Payne-Gallwey's example testifies.

johnny.winter · Post by **johnny.winter** » Sun Sep 03, 2006 10:09 am

@Michal
Freezing should be no problem at all but before using it you need to defrost and dry the tendons.
If you can get it for free, why not give it a try? I have no experience with ostrich sinew but I?ll bet it works.

nordbogen · Post by **nordbogen** » Sun Sep 03, 2006 12:43 pm

@Tomaz: to get back to your 2 attempt. I remember a friend gave horsetendons (if back or leg? sorry...). He told me even your problem. I asked him to give me some for tests and I couldn`t get only one out of them. It looked very fat and the untouched sinew looked as if it was cracked suare. So there couldn`t get out long pieces. What was the reason? I used the rest for my dogs as chewing gum.

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 1:48 am

Most bowyers I know use neck sinew for making glue only. Payne-Gallwey was no anatomist.

My experience with neck tendon was exactly the same as everyone else: it was like rubber when wet and had too much stretch.

redhawk · Post by **redhawk** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 8:23 pm

Don?t use sinew from domesticated animals!

Neck-tendon is a good choice for fletching, leg-sinew from wild animals is the best choice for a good sinew-backing. I prefer leg-sinew from deer, elk, moose, buffalo or water-buffalo.
Domesticated animals like the most cattle have nowadays almost no possibility to move and so they don?t develop strong sinew. Thats the reason why a tendon breaks into little pieces when you pound it.
Even if you got it for free, its a waste of time.

Michael

Adam Karpowicz · Post by **Adam Karpowicz** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 9:59 am

As Bede said, Payne-Gallwey was no anatomist. Moreover, I have always believed he soaked his sinew in water that was too hot. This indeed makes sinew shrivel to become like slimy strands of rubber.

From my experience neck tendons are too brittle to be separated into sinew fibres and can not be used for backing. This applies also to moose sinew. Neck tendons are not the same as backstrap.

Adam

white hawk · Post by **white hawk** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 12:20 pm

redhawk wrote:Don?t use sinew from domesticated animals!

But for making glue? The caw sinew is not too fat? Or it's far enoungh for glue?

redhawk · Post by **redhawk** » Sun Dec 10, 2006 7:23 am

I prefer sinews from wild animals for glue-making too.
My experiences with sinews, horns, hides....from wild animals are much better.

Michael

Problems with cattle sinew

Problems with cattle sinew

freezing sinews

problems with cattle sinew

Re: problems with cattle sinew

problems with cattle sinew....