angular bows

redhawk · Post by **redhawk** » Thu Jun 15, 2006 6:27 am

Every now and then I was thinking about the sense of the angle of the angular bows.
The Egyptians and some other people around the Meditarrenean Sea have made them.
Maybe there are some technical reasons, maybe there are some mythological reasons?
What about the performance of such an angular bow?
Many ideas??

Michael

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Thu Jun 15, 2006 11:44 pm

David Betteridge wrote an article on the development of angular bows in the Journal of the Society of Archer-Antiquaries. He advanced the theory that the original angualr bow might have been an accident when the core collapsed in a simple reflexed bow. When the bowyers found they had a deflexed/reflexed bow that performed well at long draw lengths, they kept and spread the design.

jack farrell · Post by **jack farrell** » Sat Jun 17, 2006 4:16 pm

I cannot add anything on the development of the angular bow's design. However, several bows from the Tut burial look to have had structural problems in the grip before they were decorated. Others look like they should have problems because of the lack of a strong riser in the grip. One might assume that some of these bows had flex in the grip.

Angular design is one of the longest lasting designs of composite bows, from about 2000 BC to about 500 or 600 BC. It is understood today that a forward bent grip makes for accurate shooting. This feature is included in most all modern recurves.

There were also composite bows of a simple curved shape, also called"D" bows or "Segment" bows, being used at the same time. Bows with recurved tips also appeared in both designs.

If one could discover from who the Egyptians learned angular bow design, a major piece of the composite bowmaking puzzle would fall into place.

redhawk · Post by **redhawk** » Mon Jun 19, 2006 9:26 pm

Thanks Jack, Bede,

for to earn the advantage of a deflexed grip it would be not necessary to make an angle.
I guess the key is the angle in "cooperation" with a grip working a bit?
I could remember a picture of a drawn egyptian hornbow, and the angle bents into a curve?

Michael

rob · Post by **rob** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 8:19 pm

Some of these angular bows had a thin layer of sinew on the belly.
What was the purpose of this?
Would this layer reduce reflex?

Robert

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 3:16 pm

Robert,
Due to the strange effects of hydrolysis on proteins after several thousand years, not all the identifications of material in the Egyptian bows can be relied on.

However, taking that into account, perhaps they thought putting sinew on the belly was a safety feature in case the string broke. The ancients did not have the theory to prove of disprove the idea and they did not have the resources to do extensive testing. Most progress was probably trial and error.

redhawk · Post by **redhawk** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 8:16 pm

Bede, I don?t believe in the common trial and error-theory. Every culture has its own wisdom, knowledge, capablities and procedures. Every culture has its own trials and errors.

I suppose more and more that the angle has its mythological roots. The angle couldn?t be a kind of construction-basic.

Fortunately I?ll have the opportunity to reconstruct a Cretan angular bow, so I hope to come a bit closer to an understanding of this bow-design.

Michael

rob · Post by **rob** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 8:44 pm

Micheal
what is a cretan angular bow?
Is it very silmilar to a egyptian agular bow?
Thanks
Robert

jack farrell · Post by **jack farrell** » Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:20 pm

Have others noticed that Egyptian angular bows had almost the exact opposite shape than wood bows of the period?

It is a difficult thing to put the angle into an angular bow. -j-

redhawk · Post by **redhawk** » Sat Sep 23, 2006 6:22 am

R.Toelle-Kastenbein posts a picture of a relief showing a "Cretan angular "bow". This bow is drawn by the archer, but it is told to be an angular bow. There are a few hints in literature about angular bows used by some of the Greek tribes, but their main bow-design was a refinement of the Scythian bow-design.
The Cretan angular seems to be similiar to the Egyptian angular.

Michael

jack farrell · Post by **jack farrell** » Sat Sep 23, 2006 10:44 pm

When drawn fully, an angular bow assumes a smooth curve. This curve can be much more pronounced than what a wood bow is capable. It is agreed by historians that the bow of the Homeric epics was the angular composite because the sacking of Troy (c 1200 BC) precedes the arrival of the Scythian bow. Homer states that a drawn hornbow assumed the shape of an oval.

By the time the Illiad is written (c. 600BC) the Greeks have adopted Scythian style archery gear. There was even a time inbetween these two dates in which archery artifacts are missing in Greek archaeology.

I cannot think of a single contribution that Greeks made to archery gear. All the rich variations can be easily identified among Greece's neighbors. Greeks seemed to be resigned to accept archery as a necessity rather than embrace it as the preeminent symbol of a warrior, as their neighbors, the Scythians did. -j-

redhawk · Post by **redhawk** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 2:09 pm

thanks, Jack for your contributions to this topic.

You are right, for the Greeks archery seemed to be nothing but a necessity.

But during the preparation of our research project E. Godehardt, a historian and me checked out every picture we could get posting Greek bows or parts of bows.

We would summarize that the Greeks were using wooden bows until they had contact with the Scythians. They have even engaged Scythian mercenaries. And they began to refine the Scythian bow-design.

We explored one very exciting and unique design, but we don?t want to post it till the bows are ready. The prototypes are done as selfbows, and they work very well.

Often paintings of Greek bows are told to be a result of the imagination of a painter, but even the Greek bows with the most bizzare curves are real bows.

I think most traditional bowyers are focused too much on English longbows, Japanese boobows, Turkish and Korean hornbows. There is really much, much more to explore.

Michael

jack farrell · Post by **jack farrell** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 2:45 am

Do a search of the Illiad. I think it is Pandarus who takes an Ibex with horns of 16 hands, and takes them to a "worker of horns" to have a bow made. This happens at least 300 years before the earliest date of Scythian culture. And as we have agreed in the past, Scythian bows are not associated with horns.

In the Odyssy, the others cannot figure out how Odyssus bow is to be strung, because it is a hornbow. etc. Some say that he was a Mycinnean from Crete., Argali goats. etc.

These are just some arguments which were made to me in the past. -j-

Art on good Attic pots is too late. Go back to Crete.

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 2:21 am

Jack,
I think that it is a mistake to assume that Homer was describing weapons of the time of the fall of Troy in either the Iliad or the Odyssey. The bows he was describing were probably 9th-8th century BC and quite capable of being influenced by Scythian culture in its early forms. However, the description is not precise enough to come to any conclusions and later Greek writers often alluded to Homer in their descriptions to show their literary knowledge. This means even their writings are suspect.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » Sun Oct 01, 2006 10:12 am

Looks the angular bow has been rediscovered or re-invented:

http://www.borderbows.com/products/semi ... rrier.html

http://www.borderbows.com/products/semi/harrier.html

Maybe this says something about the desirable shooting characteristics (reduced hand-shock, accuracy + speed?) of this design if it is arrived at independently in the modern age - via a different route i.e. from AFB's?