speed shooting = horseback archery?

Adam Karpowicz · Post by **Adam Karpowicz** » Fri Nov 03, 2006 1:37 am

I have a question which I am sure would be easily answered by historians among us:

Horseback archery seems to be associated with fast shooting. What is the historical evidence on this? Trainig of horseback archers in fast shooting? Fast shooting on the battlefield? Country of origin?

I apologize for the silly question.

Thanks

Adam

Redhorse · Post by **Redhorse** » Fri Nov 03, 2006 5:31 am

Time, you don't have time for aiming at 50 kmh on standing still target.

redhawk · Post by **redhawk** » Fri Nov 03, 2006 6:46 am

This is not a silly question, cause the term speed-shooting is a bit misleading.
I know Christian Schrade who is an excellent horesback-archer and he teaches every horesback-archery beginner to shoot his arrows very fast as much arrows as possible within a little time. When he is able to do that, than he can start to shoot from his horse.
Among all the ancient nomadic tribes and hordes you can found games and competitions of "speed-shooting".

Michael

Adam Karpowicz · Post by **Adam Karpowicz** » Fri Nov 03, 2006 11:08 am

Michael:

Such games are also known for foot archers. I am interested in "speed-shooting" specifically in horse archery. And related to warfare. The use of this technique on the battlefield by horse archers and training for it, hopefully with references.

Thanks

Adam

Redhorse · Post by **Redhorse** » Fri Nov 03, 2006 11:47 am

Think if you were at a battle field with your horse. The best man survives.
But accuracy, if you don't hit it does not matter if you miss many arrows at speed shooting.
How did they do? Be sure that they did what was best, you don't need any references for that.
For them this was life or dead, not a game to play with your archer friends.
I see a lot of horseback shooting on target. But how many of this riders can control their horses in chaos? And still shoot with speed and accuracy?

Adam Karpowicz · Post by **Adam Karpowicz** » Fri Nov 03, 2006 2:41 pm

Redhorse, yes I agree with you, and thank you for your answer. But you misunderstood my question.

I need historically proven instances, when the practice of speed-shooting on a horse (or such trainig) was confirmed in war.

Adam

Redhorse · Post by **Redhorse** » Fri Nov 03, 2006 4:35 pm

Yes but there has alway been those who has been faster then other.
Anybody can play golf but how many can beat Tiger Woods?
So find a confirmed warrior who has speed shoot is like asking if there was faster shooting soldiers WWII.
Many times we are to historical correct so we miss what was real. I see that all the time, we seek something that is front of our eyes if we just look.
When finding a old thing, don't look for how they used it. Try to use it and it will be like they did. Don't copy, look instead why tings are like they are.
Take a horse and a gang horse archer and start to fight, in minutes you have the answer.

Stephen Selby · Post by **Stephen Selby** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 2:01 am

Actually, a complicated question.

The 'need for speed' is obvious; but there have been different theories applied. Kassai method (followed by Schrade) is effective for display; but was not permitted in military engagements in China, according to Ming manuals. There was a general rule against holding more than one item in one hand, as it was regarded as generally dangerous. Therefore all military shooting was taught from the quiver and not with a bunch of arrows held in the bow hand.

Being based in military tradition, Korean horseback archery contest rules do not permit shooting with arrows grasped against the side of the bow. However, holding up to three arrows together in the draw-hand is permitted, on the basis that with a quiver, fumbling a couple of arrows is not as dangerous as risking dropping your bow.

Speed nocking was assisted by having bulbous nocks on arrows and very shallow nocks which did not pinch onto the string.

Redhorse · Post by **Redhorse** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 7:18 am

I agree, show shooting and war shooting is different tasks.
Keeping 8 arrows with hunting points in bow hand and shoot one every 3 stride is speed shooting but dangerous. Riding on track is safe but not in chaos shooting in different direction. And you would not want to stick a arrow in your horse neck by mistake. A fly can make your horse to turn its head and if you are aiming in front the horse can get the point in it's eye.
But back to fight, you don't follow rules if it can get you killed. You do what you think is best and what your training let you do. You don't stop to turn an arrow just because it has wrong side to the bow.
There is no pause button.

Adam Karpowicz · Post by **Adam Karpowicz** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 12:10 pm

Stephen:

Were the bulbous/shallow nocks supposed to help in speed nocking, or generally in nocking in the awkward positions on a horse, when one may not have the time to look at the arrow nock? These types of nocks may have been helpful, as well as the types with two nock grooves at 90deg, to nock arrows faster withot looking, but it does not mean speed-shooting was actually practiced on a horse.

When I posted this question, I was certain there would be many references about deliberate fast shooting and training to achieve this skill.

Adam

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 1:01 pm

Adam,
There are definitely reference to shooting quickly, but they are on foot. There is a particular one in Saracen Archery, the interpretation of which might require some adjustment.

The nocking techniques in the three major Middle Eastern archery manuals teach you to draw and shoot without looking at the bow, arrow or quiver. Needless to say that is a necessary first step in speed shooting on horseback.

The major types of shooting in the Middle East from horseback emphasised flexibility rather than speed. Though for qighaj at least you had to be fast. I will look up the references to see if there are distances between targets noted (I think there are). Certainly, in modern times in the Caucasus, similar games required shooting several times at the targets.

In defence of Kassai's method, there is a terracotta of a Parthian horsearcher showing him holding arrows in the bow hand. I agree this is dangerous, but it might have only lasted until the invention of waist quivers worn on the drawing hand side.

I have only seen arrows being held in the drawing hand on a painted plate from Kashan in Iran. The archers were kneeling in a fortress. I will recheck the image.

It is important to remember that there are two types of shooting in battle. You either shot at a mass of men or at individuals. It is unlikely that in a one on one engagement you would be trying for speed. You would be attempting to shoot accurately and finish off your opponent. When a group of horse archers attacked a crowd of enemy cavalry or infantry, they would have shot as many arrows as they could to break up the enemy lines and panic their horses.

The Sassanians were famous for the rate at which they could shoot arrows and even in mediaeval times the crusader reports comment on the rapidity at which arrows were showered on them.

There is a film from Tibet in the 1930s showing armoured cavalry shooting at two targets in succession, first with a matchlock gun and then with their bows. In order to do this, they had to take the bow from the bow case and draw the arrow from the quiver, nock it and shoot. All this was done at a gallop.

Regarding nocks, if you look at some Tatar arrows in the Askeri Museum, Istanbul and also in Polish collections, the nock is wide mouthed in comparison with Turkish and Indo-Persian arrows. In Khorasani's book on Iranian arms and armour, there are similar nocks on some of the arrows.

However, practical experience suggests that repeated practice is better than special nocks. Cross nocks are weaker than ordinary nocks and would have been a problem if they broke, especially if you caught the string over one cusp instead of two. There is a surviving Chinese arrow with multiple nocks but the nock area is too wide to pass the bow.

Adam Karpowicz · Post by **Adam Karpowicz** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 3:18 pm

Thanks Bede for the good answer.

To summarize the discussion as I understand it:

The methods of shooting, arrow holding, looking/not looking at arrows and nock design do not confirm that archers were required to shoot fast. It could have been desirable, but not necessarily practiced.

There are references to skill (as you mentioned Sassanians etc.) of horse archers.

My understanding of the use of bow on a horse was this: it was used, as on foot, to shower the enemy from a distance, if this method had any use in a particular situation and this may apply to attacks on a fortified enemy as well. The other was galloping along the enemy flank to kill and maim as many opponents as possible plus horses - this method seemed to be favoured by the Ottomans (and probably other Turkish riders) - but again the accuracy was more important than speed (there are references to accuracy, not the rate of shoting). There were, of course, other non-tactical uses, such as one-to-one combat etc.

I believe now the modern horse archery has developed the methods of speed shooting as a game only (an a very good one in my opinion).

?

Adam

Redhorse · Post by **Redhorse** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 5:37 pm

"I believe now the modern horse archery has developed the methods of speed shooting as a game only (an a very good one in my opinion)."

It's the only trill left

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Sun Nov 05, 2006 9:40 pm

Adam,
There are accounts of the Mongols in Syria dismounting and putting their horses in the rear. They then proceeded to shower their enemies with arrows. This says nothing about speed of shooting, but it does show horse archers were flexible in their tactics.

You have raised a point which I discussed with several people at a Horse Archery Festival some years ago. It occurred to me that no one has come up with contemporary material from horse archer nations on battle tactics as opposed to combat tactics. The most detail account of horse archery in Saracen Archery only realy describes one on one fighting and sport archery. This is true of earlier literature from Egypt as well.

The Byzantines made some comments and late Roman authors describe other peoples tactics, but not in real detail. Modern military writers treat charging and turning as trivial problems, but it is much harder to attack on a line then turn off as a mass of horsemen than it is to charge home. All practice and sports in horse archery develop shooting skills, not the riding skills which would be critical. Taybugha advised students to see a lance master to learn the finer points of military riding.

It is possible that nomadic horse archers used their knowledge of horse behaviour to exploit the herd instincts of their mounts to control their mass behaviour. However, working out how to deliver the best approach to shoot effectively and the best departure to prevent confusion if the enemy charge unexpectedly. For instance, the Parthian shot is not much use if the majority of the people behind you are your own soldiers.

jack farrell · Post by **jack farrell** » Mon Nov 06, 2006 3:03 am

There is a lot of material on Native American speed shooting. For instance a game was played where shooters would keep numbers of arrows in the air at one time. I believe that five was a respectable number but not the record. possibly look to Hamilton. All the arrows were held in the bowhand and flicked into position.

I lately read a report of Army surgeons on arrow wounds who said that those injured with arrows were likely to have multiple wounds.

There are references to English archers in the King's service who were required to sustain a certain rate of fire, I believe 20 arrows per minute. Certain references call for an accuracy.

One of the Islamic texts admonishes students that the first one to make an accurate shot may win a duel.

My article on Rock art shows a selfbow archer of Samarkand felling an opponent with a composite.

One can only assume that accuracy and speed preceded both horsemanship and archery as tenents of armed conflict. -j-