Strength and Penetration of Scythian Bows

[Bede]

For Erhard Godehardt:
Your experience of tracking down Scythian bows in museum collections is very similar to mine, though you have done a better job. I had heard of both the bows you mentioned, but your additional information is very interesting.

I have an arrow on my desk that has an arrowhead almost identical to those used in your photograph. It is a reed Indo-Persian arrow designed for a 70 cm draw. The steel in the head is wootz. The nock was inserted wood and the opening for the string was 5mm. The reed portion of the shaft was a uniform 7.5 mm. Due to the deteriotation of the pointed shaftment, it is had to tell how many feathers, but other similar arrows had 3 or 4, 6mm-high feathers of an average length of 10-12 cm. Though the arrow is several hundred years old, it still is stiff enough for a 35-40 pound bow with a three fingered draw.

Regarding the strength of bows used on horseback, while there is no reason you could not draw a very heavy bow on horseback, your choice is governed by what the other writers have mentioned here. In Scythian times, it was normal to shoot many light, small-headed arrows. It would be logical to use a bow that you can shoot many times without becoming tired. By the Qing conquest of China, several cultures had start carrying fewer, heavier arrows and shot them with more powerful bows. However, an argument for not using the "most" powerful bows is that you want the bow completely under your control. You still have to ride and listen for the commands of your troop commander. Someone standing still in in a mass of infantry can concentrate fully on drawing without any distractions and so remain in control of a heavier bow.

We should also remember that a heavier bow has to be an efficient bow as well. Composite bows can be made more efficient than English longbows. They do not need to be as heavy in draw weight to get the same effect.

[Adam Karpowicz]

It would be rather useful to define a "heavy" and "average" bow for this discussion. The buffalo hunts are not a good example, since the kills were done at the point blank range.

It is my impression the archers in countries where bowhunting is allowed, commonly use heavier bows than elsewhere. In North Amrica, an average bow is 50lb, while many use a 60-65lb for an extra assurance of a clean kill. There quite a few who can easily use bows in excess of 75lb. Many of the hunters have desk jobs and practice only occasionally. Only the most dedicated practice every day for, perhaps, a half hour.

Now, imagine a culture permeated with the use of bow as the most important weapon. Even the 3-5 year old children would hunt rabbits with a bow riding sheep 8^). Young people practice constantly to develop the skill and spend practically all their time oudoors doing heavy physical work which includes combat. No doubt there is a great pressure by peers and commanders to engage the enemy from as far as possible for your own and others protection. Heavier bows have flatter trajectory even at a closer distance. Add to that a life spent for the most part in a military camp with the usual macho attitudes (by both sexes if present). Under these circumstances there has to be a trend to use the heaviest bows possible.

Imagine you do heavy physical work all your life and your survival and reputation depends on your strength and skill in the use of bow.

If now a hunter considers a 50lb bow average, what would be an average bow for these people?

Adam

[jack farrell]

Adam; Your argument seens plausible, I have no strong opinion on the matter, but let me add some information to the mix. Wasn't it in Saracen archery that archers are admonished not to shoot the strongest bow that they can shoot but to shoot one that is totally comfortable to them, least your opponent shoot faster and aim more accurately?

One of my favorite quotes is in Indian Archery (India) where archers are admonished to shoot 400 arrows a day and if that is not possible, to shoot 200 arrows a day. Within 6 months you are guaranteed to be among the best archers in the world. For me a 100 arrow round is a tiring experience. Several times, I have shot 200 arrows in a round. This is almost crippling to do with my average bow, impossible to do with a strong bow. I have been a carpenter all my adult life with hard physical exercise almost daily. Though I am strong and fit, my tendons are mush. A #40 bow is all I can handle.

Use Kassai for an example. He is like a military person, riding hard, and shooting every day. He shoots a #35 bow. But he rides agressively and hits the target!

[Adam Karpowicz]

Jack:

I would think you are an exception: hunting with a 40lb bow is not even allowed in Canada. 45lb is the minimum.

Shooting 200 arrows a day will make you a very strong archer, if your tendons and joints are exercised from childhood and can take the pressure. The muscles involved in archery are different than for example weightlifting and need special attention.

I am not a sporty person and I have had a desk job for most of my life. I found it is very easy to progress from a weak bow to a 50lb-er, and then, with minimal exercise to 65lb. I do not exercise, only pull a bow or rubber bands for a couple of times every day (if I remember). My archery practise takes place only in the summer. Still, I can pull 90lb and shoot a 70lb bow all day.

Someone would have to give me a good explanation why Turkish bows in museums are so strong. Only then I can accept the "weak bow" theory.

Adam

[Patrick Menzies]

Adam, I agree that living a very physical life and shooting from an early age can make you very strong as far as bow shooting goes. I worked hard as a kid on a farm and did lots of rope climbing, chin ups etc. I am no weight lifter(5-11 160) but I have drawn a 100 plus pound longbow to 32 inches. I handed the same bow to my older brother who almost never shoots and he made it look like a kids bow. I personally think the ancient archers shot heavy bows no matter what the type. I wouldn't be surprised if the Scythian bows were more like hand held crossbow prods.
Most people seem to complain of finger pain when trying to draw a bow. Having tough fingers goes a long way as well. Pat

[Godehardt]

Hello Adam, hello Patrick,
if someone draws a bow 32 inches and has then 100 lbs on his fingers and shoulder, this does mean that (for a fistmele of 8 inches and a nearly linear force-draw-curve like for English longbows) he has drawn less than 70 lbs at 25 inches! Horse archers usually have rather short draw lengths of 24-26 inches. Do you really believe that an archer who draws 100 lbs at 32 inches is capable to draw 100 lbs at 25 inches? I started my archery "career" with a compound bow with a peak weight of 42 lbs at 21 inches. It was no big problem for me to draw then horse bows with a weight of 50 lbs at 26 inches. However, I could not draw a compound bow with a peak weight of 50 lbs at 20 inches! The physics are really different in these pulling processes. We always should give the draw length when we speak about draw weights.
Also we should keep in mind that the over-trained war archers from England had their problems with their shoulders. Many of them had severe degenerations. This has been found by Mrs. Stirland and is published in her book where she describes the skeletons found in the Mary Rose ship. I cannot believe that horse archers and hunters use bows so strong to damage their health. They most probably knew which bow weights they could handle comfortably.

[Jaroslav]

100 lbs is 100 lbs. You are speaking out of perspective a man who shoots 50#.

I m 165 cm tall (say short), weight only 63 kg (130#). Not only I can draw 100#, but I can shoot 100 consecutive arrows in dozen/rounds. To say first, strenght matters at third place. Sadly I havent found bow which would defeat me, but I hope to make some long draw 130#.

1. Technique - heavy bow technique does. I have copyed part of mine from kjudo and using heavy bow chinese stance, which seems to be derived from siting position.

2. Sturdines, or stamina. Also hardness. Means some people are somehow stocky and fit even without training. If you could jump up, hold yourself on the top of the 2 m high wall by fingers and pull yourself up faster than you can say "yes", then you are there. Working with hands is also a measure. Heavy bow shooters recruit from blacksmith/farmers/heavy machinery stock or breed.
The people of past have been working with hands more than any of us can imagine. Go figure.

3. Strenght - but hardly determined in gym. Most powerlifters are somehow muscle bound, with bad coordination and grumly hands. Perhaps push-ups are again good measure. I can do 40-50 without training. 20 would be enough for any task.


Say that normal hard working man can do 100# bow. If you cant, your technique sucks. Substract 1/4 for horse archery and you ll get your average 75# heavy hunting bow which is probably everything what was used in warfare until proper body protection was introduced, what lead further in introducing heavy long draw bows shooting heavy arrows ending inenvitably blind route of 150# and more and in development of crossbow in china.
As the english say you can get lot of people shooting heavy bows, but only few with a degree of accuracy.

Back to scythian bows - there are some guys on PA site using rivercane for arrows. This one is probably better stuff than bamboo. What about replicating arrow exactly to get possible spine.
Surelly archers of old didnt knew spine, but they werent stupid. Most of any arrows found match to the bows in the manner that arrow goes at the place you are looking on.

[Adam Karpowicz]

"100 lbs is 100 lbs. You are speaking out of perspective a man who shoots 50#. "

Absolutely, a 100lb is a 100lb. My exerciser weights (see the picture on ATARN) are 90lb from zero draw length.

Patric: this is what I meant. Ask a farm kid who throws hay all day long to pull a bow. The strength is combination of joint strength, tendons and the technique, as Jaroslaw said. Most of us can not even imagine this, we are degenerates...8^)

I am not sure though if the average for a horse bow would be only 75lb. I think the bows could be underdrawn by a couple of inches when shot from a horse at a closer distance and in full gallop, but could have been as heavy. Then the archers could use the full power of the bow in a stationary position, also on a horse.

Adam

[Jaroslav]

Adam - I thought 75# as possible average for scythyan bows. Judging what has been said about arrow and that with development of armor the later drawweight went up quickly.
Say 75# at full draw and with inch or two underdraw for snapshooting 65#. For a normal man of that era it would feell like 40# for us.

I m have not much of knowledge about horse archery or hornbows. I m only thinking in terms of what I do with heavy bows. Sorry.

[jack farrell]

Guys; This discussion is why we need a "Nomad Archer Contest". Wouldn't you want to know how the best archers can do on their second hundred arrows? And shooting backwards? And after all that have a penetration contest, flight shooting contest etc? Take it to the limit, like battle. And make the contestants use their same primitive equipment for all? -j-

[Jaroslav]

Count me in.

[Patrick Menzies]

It is probably a bit misleading to say the average farm kid of today is a robust specimen(except around the midsection). The days of digging postholes with a spade, swinging an axe and putting up tons of hay with no elevator are in the past. Not to mention clearing rocks from fields by hand. If there is a way of automating a task today it will be done. We tried to make these tasks even more difficult to challenge ourselves. Two bales of hay carried as far away from our body as we could hold them. Throwing them to the top of the wagon or across the hay mow if we could. You have to want to challenge yourself a bit.
I would say chin ups or rope climbing will develop those pulling muscles better than anything.
I disagree with the point made that 100 pounds at a long draw indicates that 100 at a shorter draw will be tougher. If the Scythian archers did actually do that low draw to the armpit of the bow arm then I would think that is a function of a heavy short draw. You can really put a lot of pressure into a draw that way. More than you can by trying to do a short draw to a higher anchor. Pat

[Adam Karpowicz]

Patric, you make a good point, it is indeed much easier to draw down, not up. I felt this was "cheating", but I saw compound archers do this.

With this in mind, I'd say 80-85lb for the average draw of the eastern Scythian bows. A bit more than the 75lb Jaroslaw is suggesting and not reaching the 100lb which seems to be a psychological barrier.

What do you think? Erhard?

Adam

[Adam Karpowicz]

In the post above I should have said "Scythian", not "eastern Scythian".

Actually, the short western Scythian bow should feel like a compound bow, drawn only to the peak draw weight at around 21". The compound bows seem to be easier to draw, dont't they...

Adam

[Stephen Selby]

Sorry that Li Chengfen is not on ATARN. I'll put it up. (It's in my book. Sometimes I forget things, like a squirrel burying nuts )

Li Chengfen said:

1. The Lethal Weapon
To quote ?Xun Zi?, ?If the arrow isn?t correctly matched to the bow, even Yi couldn?t score a hit with it. When he talks of ?matched, it means ?the arrow [weight] goes according to the [weight of the] bow and the bow goes according to the strength of the archer.? So when the arm is strong and the bow is weak, we call it ?the arm fooling the bow?; and when the bow is heavy and the arm is weak, we call it ?the bow fooling the arm.? In my travels and among my sharp-shooting friends, I have some who can fully draw a bow of ten ?li? (54.6 Kg). But in their day-to-day practice, they never draw more than nine. This illustrates the desire to co-ordinate bow, arrow and strength.

In the old days, they used to use ?stones? to measure the draw-weight if bows. Nowadays, we use ?li? as a unit of weight. I don?t know what caused the change. Anyway, nine catties and four ounces (5.46 Kg) makes a li and ten li make a stone (54.6 Kg). Another version has it that nine catties and 14 ounces (5.83 Kg) makes a li. If a bow had a draw-weight of five li (27.3 Kg) and the weight of the arrow was four qian (15 gm), then it would fishtail in flight and be unstable. On the other hand, if the draw-weight of the bow were three li (16.4 Kg) and the arrow weight was seven qian (26gm), the flight of the arrow would be sluggish and the release wouldn?t be crisp. Why would that be? Because the weights are not correctly adjusted!

Thus for a bow with a draw-weight of three li, (16.4 Kg), the arrow to use is ten quan in length. The term ?quan? is equivalent to one ?ba?, and an arrow of ten ?ba? has a weight of 4.5 qian (16.6 gm). A bow with a draw-weight of four li (21.8 Kg) uses an arrow length of between 9.5 ba and 10 ba, either of which is within the correct proportions, and the weight should come out at 5.5 qian (20.3 gm). Draw-weights of five to six li (27.3 ? 32.8 Kg) also need an arrow length of 9.5 quan; and when you get up to draw-weights in the region of seven of eight li (38.2 ? 43.7 Kg), you use an arrow of only 9 quan, and if the length is up to 9.5 quan, that is still acceptable. So the length of an arrow depends on the draw-weight of the bow. And the height of the string string-bridge also depends on the draw-weight of the bow. The ?string-bridge? is to guide the string at the upper limbs. If it is of the incorrect height then the string won?t be properly adjusted to the bow.

So when you are adjusting a bow, examine the arrows and get the weight and length of the arrows right for the weight of the bow. Once that is done, [the sharpness of] your eye and power [of your draw] work together and your [shot] will never err. Moreover, you can allow no shoddy workmanship as regards the breadth of the bow-limbs, taken together with the bracing height, the rigidity of the grip and the way the fletching is done: proper adjustment between all these things is of the greatest importance.

A good bow has a belly face rather than a broad one. The brace height should allow for proper tension and the grip should be wide enough to give sufficient strength. The broadening of the grip should be gradual, not abrupt. The cutting of the arrows should provide for barelling between the nock toward the head. If the arrow shafts are cylindrical, it is better for them to be on the thick side. The fletching should be short and the string should be thick. If it is thick, it will fit snugly into the nock and remain steady without sliding out. That is all on adjusting the bow and arrows.

The equipment you use in normal, daily practice is different to what you use in battle. If you use a narrow bow, it looks pretty and you can use it day-to-day. But in the battlefield you need a broad bow. If the bow is heavy, it will have good penetration, and if it is broad, it won?t come unstrung. The minimum length for an arrow should be no less than nine quan. Shorter than that and it cramps the shoulder and back joints [at the draw].

Supposing you have a bow with a draw-weight of 3.2 li (19 kg), and you use an arrow nine quan in length weighing six Chinese ounces (22 gm). This seems not to follow the correct proportions, yet it will still fly very fast and stable. A correct proportion is certainly involved here, and it is to be found by giving further attention and becoming conversant with it. This is the outline of ?the lethal weapon.?

The mnemonic goes:
?Take a light hand to your bow, and choose an arrow long;
Set the arrow on the string and make your intent fierce and strong.
The way to draw the bow has the draw and bow arms dividing into a yin and yang;
As the arrow leaves the bow, it carries one point each of skill, stability, accuracy and viciousness.?

?Stability?, ?accuracy? and ?viciousness? are three methods in archery. A person who wants to excel in his field must have a comprehensive grasp of the ins and outs of his ?lethal weapon.?