Did the Magyars use Thumb rings?

[M Hardman]

Dear all,

I've searched the Atarn archives and i couldn't find a conclusive answer so here goes

Did the magyars use thumb rings?

Cheers

Mike

[Bede]

As far as I have seen, the Magyars used either a two-finger or a three-finger release from the time of Arpad. Up until the 15th century (at least the 1430s), they are reported as shooting using their fingers to draw the string (Bertrandon de la Broqu?ere).

It is quite likely that thumb rings were introduced by the Avars, but the Magyars had their own tradition. The Byzantines may have learned the use of the thumb rings from the Avars or the Western Turks since they had contact with both peoples.

Some of our Hungarian members can confirm this since I am relying on reports translated to English.

[Szabi Nagy]

That's THE question here, too.
The pictures of the Illuminated Chronicle show a two-finger draw, but a few hundred years passed between the actual events and the making of these pics. And in the meantime, the whole Hungarian army was reorganized in a western-european way. That's why I was asking here about the thumb release of the Sassanids in the pictures of Sahname - maybe the Illuminated Chronicle shows a similar example, I don't know...
The main point against the tumb draw is the complete lack of thumb rings in Magyar graves. However, I'm not sure such rings would be recognized, as their archery-relatedness is still not well known here...
There's a recent thesis about the findings at Birka, Sweden, unfortunaetely I don't speak Swedish, so I hope somebody will help us with the brief summary of the part about thumb rings found there: http://www.diva-portal.org/diva/getDocu ... lltext.pdf
There's an interesting wall painting in the Temple of Kakaslomnic, showing the legendary fight of a Cuman and St. Ladislaus of the Arpad-house - the Cuman seems to shoot with his thumb, holding his spare arrow in his right hand.
I hope others, like Jeno or Paku will add to this. Personally, I shoot with a thumb ring as it feels MUCH better
Szabi

[Redhorse]

I have read the Swedish paper.
The thumb ring they found is not a thumb ring. And they also say that Hungarian did not use ring.
But in that paper are so much faults that I would not consider any information from that as real fact.

[Szabi Nagy]

Thanks!
Szabi

[Bede]

I think Szabi made a valid point. You cannot use later artistic representations as evidence of earlier practice. However, if the preponderance of evidence is negative, it is safe to assume that thumb rings were not used.

The lack of thumb rings in the archaeological record could be that they were made of leather or horn and have vanished through insect damge or bacteriological activity. The easiest explanation was that they were not there in the first place.

I once asked Dr Vladimir Kubarov whether he had found any thumb rings in early Kirghiz graves around the Altai Mountains and he said he had never seen one. The same has been said about Xiongnu tombs. There are no remains of thumb rings in pre-Mongol invasion Qipchaq tombs on the steppe north of the Black Sea.

Despite the earlier introduction of the thumb ring probably by the Avars, other steppe tribes seemed not to use it until after the Mongols. However, it was used in Byzantium and in the Muslim Middle East probably from the early seventh century.

However, it is likely that their were pockets of thumb ring use spread across the steppe. the problem is to find the evidence. It is likely that the bronze rings found throughout the Balkans where left by nomadic tribesmen and later Turkish armies. Some are probably Byzantine. Someone could do a doctoral thesis going through old archaeological records looking for overlooked thumb rings from datable excavations.

[Stephen Selby]

Thumbrings are not essential for a thumb draw. I don't use one any more. They seem to be more important for practice, when you repeat shots many times. When you are just shooting off an arraow every few minutes, you don't really need one.

An alternative to thumbrings is a thickening of the string below the point where the arrow is knocked. That can make even a heavy bow quite comfortable to draw without a ring.

In China, there are no thumbrings in burials from the Han Dynasty through to the Qing dynasty (a gap of 1200 years). Despite this, it is clear that the thumb draw was used there.

S

[Szabi Nagy]

In the meantime I found an online version of the Kakaslomnic painting:
http://www.pccd.hu/nemzetismeret/image.php?id=a_040b
It's from the XV. century. Although it isn't so clear from the point of view of the draw, the way he holds the spare arrows is a bit suspicious, I think.
Szabi

[Redhorse]

Looks wrong. Bow in right hand but the quiver on right side as a left hand hold archer have.
Arrows in draw hand I think Japs have.

[Szabi Nagy]

I think it's rather a kind of artist's freedom - the quiver is an important element of this composition to indicate the nomadic/barbarian aspect of the Cuman ("the evil") - but the bow must be in the right hand otherwise we would see his back.
Szabi

[Jeno Major]

Does anybody have information whether thumbrings have ever been found in early Bashkyrd graves dated before the 11th Century?

[Szabi Nagy]

I wonder - were thumbrings found in Avar graves in Hungary?
Szabi

[Bede]

A comment on the painting:
If it is accurate, it might represent a right handed archer shooting left handed to hit someone on his right hand rear. Several cultures encouraged shooting with either hand where possible to extend the coverage the archer had. If you were using a closed quiver, it would be logical to take a few extra arrows out because drawing them across your body would be awkward.

Regarding the thumb rings in Avar graves:
I had read about them in several contexts, but I have not seen original excavation reports. I will look for the references I remember. I think one was an article of Dr Fabian and another about the Avars and the Gepids.

[Szabi Nagy]

Bede, thanks on forehand! The books I have (in Hungarian) do not even mention thumb rings. Only Gy. Laszlo mentioned them, but he mixed the stringing and drawing of a bow, so he wrote, stringing of these bows was so difficult that a special ring was necessary on the thumb...
Szabi

[Bede]

Szabi,
I have one of Laszlo's books. The confusion between stringing (bracing) and drawing the bow is common in authors with little experience in archery. When you are writing about a whole culture, it is hard to be the master of all the facets.