Tatar / Bashkir

Tamr The Nomad · Post by **Tamr The Nomad** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 12:30 am

Does anyone have any pictures of Sib-Tatar bows or equipment.
Adam K. recomended I look for Bashkir bows.

Any pics anyone?????

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 4:20 am

There is a line drawing of the end, including the kasan and tip, of a Bashkir bow in Saracen Archery. Looks very like a solider version of a Crimean Tatar bow.

Stephen Selby · Post by **Stephen Selby** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 6:57 am

I have this file marked down as 'Bashkir'. Perhaps Bede can elaborate.

Redhorse · Post by **Redhorse** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 9:29 am

Should we trust old pictures?
I see a Arabian purebreed horse and were the Bashkirs live I would expect more cold blood horses like the Mongol horses or other breed from that area.
Of course some Arabian blood could have some influence.
But if the horses is made up, what more in the picture is made up?
The freedom of the artist.

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 1:33 pm

This painting was made by a Scottish artist who spent a long time in Russia in the Tsarist period. It could be considered part of the early nineteenth century Orientalist painting period. The usual approach was to accumulate original objects and use them for details. Some artists, who went to the areas where they painted and sketched from life, later worked up the paintings in the studio.

The quivers, the length of the arrows and the shape of the bows are all correct for both the Tatars and the Bashkirs. The hats are a Mongol type that was used as far west as the Urals. There is a photograph of a khan wearing one in Russia from the second half of the nineteenth century.

Don't be fooled by the appearance of the horses. Horses were extensively traded from Turkey through the Caucasus and from the east in Turkmenistan. Ordinary tribesmen rode rough horses, but high bred horses were a sign of status. I have read an analysis of Russian remounts at the time of the Crimean War and the supply of cross-bred horses was very large.

jack farrell · Post by **jack farrell** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 1:54 pm

There is a nice Tatar bow in the Grayson collection, online. The big red one. -j-

Redhorse · Post by **Redhorse** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 3:27 pm

"Crimean War"
That is modern time. I thought we talked about thousand years ago. My fault.

Russ Mitchell · Post by **Russ Mitchell** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 4:25 pm

No, redhorse, your objection makes sense, but we know from grave analysis that Arabs were traded in Eastern Europe even back then. (I'm a medievalist)

Redhorse · Post by **Redhorse** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 7:06 pm

Arabians has been around very long time. But I don't think that was the common horse for Russian tribes.
In thousand year they will find a picture of a ranch hand driving a Ferrari but that don't mean it was the common workers car.
I saw a painting of a NA riding a spanish horse in high dressage. I can assure that it was not common for the plain Indians

Russ Mitchell · Post by **Russ Mitchell** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 2:24 am

Okay, let me put it this way: we have specific knowledge of these horses being traded into the region, and we have specific knowledge of extensive commerce between Eastern Europe and the Arab world, particularly the SE mediterranean.

Redhorse · Post by **Redhorse** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 6:43 am

They can be found were a man can ride. Arabian and Barb are very old and very much involved in most modern breeds.
But many times, in a painting or picture were a horse is involved they put in an arabian. This is done even today.
And that is mostly for the beauty of the arabian horse not because they use that breed. Se what I mean?
Who can tell if a painting is just made up or shows what it really look like?
And what detail is made up?

Russ Mitchell · Post by **Russ Mitchell** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 5:15 pm

That's a fight for the art-historians... generally speaking, my wife's dissertation on the topic found that most of the stuff in her area turned out to be significantly more accurate than previously thought... but you're absolutely right, there's no way you can unequivocally say "they just painted an arab there for the heck of it."

What gets me is the "would you look at the length of those arrows" factor. That's a LONG draw off a relatively small bow if the gear's authentic.

Redhorse · Post by **Redhorse** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 5:47 pm

Yes I have thought about the length but I don't know enough about arrows. But I know that I will lose the arrows if they jump out of the quiver

But if I see one thing that makes me wonder I don't trust the rest without confirm from some one who I trust to know.
Or just if it is possible, I do test it.

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 9:31 pm

The Crimean Tatar arrows in the Grayson Collection are about 34 inches long. They are well made with very strong points. Looking at Tatar arrows in other collections, such as the Askeri Museum and some Polish collections, it is apparent that there are several varieties of nocks. Some nocks are Turkish in form and others look more like Manchu ones.

Practical experience on horseback with short open quivers like the Turkish and Persian shows that there is little chance of the arrows falling out even in extreme circumstances. The quivers must be attached correctly to the belt.

As far back as the nomads buried in the Altai, two types of horses are associated with nomads on the Eurasian steppe. One type is short and stocky and looks like the modern Mongolian pony and the other is taller, more graceful and was used as the preferred riding horse by the wealthy. Hungarian accounts refer to landowners importing Turkish and Tatar horses as well as Arabians during the wars with the Ottoman Turks. The decline in the quality of the horses on the steppe can be directly associated with the spread of the two large empires at either end, the Russian and the Manchu. Large numbers of horses were purchased or stolen, breeding was disrupted and the nomadic state structures were destroyed.

Stephen Selby · Post by **Stephen Selby** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 1:36 am

Interesting that you see Arabians. I see typical Russian or Kabardian ponies with their tails slightly lifted off the crupper.