Tatar / Bashkir

Redhorse · Post by **Redhorse** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 7:26 am

Look at the head of the horse.
There are breeds in Russia that are more high in blood, I just don't remember the names now. By the way, there is a breed called Bashkir horse.

How are the arrows fastened in the quiver?

Russ Mitchell · Post by **Russ Mitchell** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 3:26 pm

On the other hand, the tumen is marked on the horse... that's a pretty rare-air observation if the painter was of the "let's throw this stuff together" variety...

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 9:43 pm

The quiver may have had spacers at the mouth or have been unobstructed on the inside. It probably had three supporting straps, two on the leading edge and one on the inside face. This arrangement would have made it very stable. Mounting and dismounting with this sort of quiver is easy: the quiver tilts to vertical when the leg is thrown over the horse's back.

TZH · Post by **TZH** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 4:44 pm

Maybe it is just a legend:-), but: in 1813 okt. 13-16(?), in the battle ol Leipzig were more soldiers from the french royal guard killed and wounded by arrows than by gunshots. There were bashkir and kalm?k mounted archers in the russian army.

Redhorse · Post by **Redhorse** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 7:45 pm

Why not, the NA did kill Custer's gang with bows. And that was 1876.

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Fri Mar 09, 2007 12:39 am

I think you will find most of Custer's men were shot by guns judging from the archeology of the battleground. In East Timor recently, Australian peace keepers were threatened by people with steel arrows propelled by slingshots. Timor still has a living archery culture, but city dwellers obviously don't have access to bow wood.

There are some funny stories about the Napoleonic encounters with Russian auxiliary cavalry. I wonder if they have been carefully selected to appeal to English sensibilities.

Orda Khan · Post by **Orda Khan** » Fri Mar 09, 2007 11:54 am

I think there is too much of an angle to accurately judge the head, though there does appear to be evidence of some dish face. Having seen the Bashkir horse, I would not be surprised if this painting depicts that type. The Akhal-Teke is another ancient breed of horse from central Asia and this horse is a fairly tall slender animal with a short mane and renowned for its stamina. I would imagine there would be quite some variety of animal if we consider trade, movement, etc.
Judging by the rest of the equipment and the detail, it looks like the artist has studied his subject quite extensively.

Redhorse · Post by **Redhorse** » Fri Mar 09, 2007 3:54 pm

Your horse looks also as it has arabian blood. Akhal-Teke if I remeber right is a tall horse. I have notice that it's more difficult to shoot from horses that has much in front of rider.
My 15 hands arabian is much better to shoot from than my 16 hands Hispano.
Maybe a peanut roller, Quaterhorse would be best

My point was not what breed they used, but that many times they paint arabinas just because they looks so nobel.

Orda Khan · Post by **Orda Khan** » Sat Mar 10, 2007 10:54 am

It's around 15.2 HH. Not the best conformation, long backed and a tendency to be cow-hocked but extremely hardy for such a graceful looking animal.

Redhorse · Post by **Redhorse** » Sat Mar 10, 2007 2:37 pm

What would a horse archer be without a horse?
Noting else than a simple soldier

Tamr The Nomad · Post by **Tamr The Nomad** » Fri Mar 30, 2007 1:24 pm

I'm not so interested in the horses. Also I am trying very hard to get info on Siberian Tatar specificaly. I am trying to avoid the common mistake of assuming that Crimean Tatars are the same as all others. Crimean Tatars may as well be called Crimean Turks. Sib Tatars differ in language greatly and are close to Bashkir Tatars. After Cummunists drew meaningless ethnic geographic lines and shifted people around for work and excile, the Tatars sort of started taking on a common identity.

I am interested in Sib-Tatar pre Communist Era.

Tamr The Nomad · Post by **Tamr The Nomad** » Fri Mar 30, 2007 5:18 pm

I just gut an email from a curator at the Manchester Museum.

She told me that they have a Bashkir bow (Turco-Finnish), at the Pitt Rivers, from the South Urals . It is 4 feet 9.5 inches in length nock to knock and again 1.5 inches wide in the limbs. It was made with a wooden belly but backed with sinew and covered with white birch bark. It was presented to the Museum by H. Balfour in 1903.

Strange to me that there is no horn on the compression side.

Tapio Manner · Post by **Tapio Manner** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 12:19 pm

Turco-Finnish

I would have to wonder if those were the actual words, if yes it is fairly strange. Recent research does not show any connection.

TLM

Tamr The Nomad · Post by **Tamr The Nomad** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 11:29 pm

Yes that is what she said and I thought it was strange too I cut and pasted it from the email I recieved.

There is an actual connection. Do not think of Finland and Turkey. Think more of The Finno-Ugric language family.

I found this link if you are interested. Remember that if you trace human anscestory, the brances continue to narrow further down as you get closer to the source.

I found a link for you: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/2282/finno.html

People should not be surprised by the Horses, Bows, languages and genetic origins when doing research. Eurasian people did not live in isolation from eachother. They borrowed, adopted and stole everything from eachother. There was a lot of contact between folks there.

We digress.

Still I am curious about the hornless composite recureve of the Bashkir and any archery tackle from the Irtysh region of western Siberia.

Has anyone seen a hornless composite recurve in the Turco-Mongol style w/out horn being used?

I would LOVE to see a picture of the bow but I think I need to go to that museum.

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Sun Apr 01, 2007 4:04 am

You could approach the museum to take a photo for you. If it was for private research, they might just charge for time and materials.

There are four Korean bows in the Grayson collection with composite construction and wooden bellies. Two have exposed wood, one has damage that shows wood under the lacquer and the other is an exact analogue of the former.

I agree with the theory that they are talking about the Finno-Ugric and Altaic language families. There are a lot of old names for these groups and the museum data cards are often from the time of acquisition.

What about Buriat bows? There are plenty of soviet era photographs on these.

I am current reading a book about the Zungar-Qing wars and it is amazing how much the tribes moved around and interacted.

Tatar / Bashkir

Bashkir and Sib-Tatar

Tatar Bows

Turco-Finnish