Tatar / Bashkir

[TZH]

There is a drawing of a bashkir bow in the WEAPONS-An international Encyclopedia from 5000 BC to AD 2000 (specially focused on british chrone territories:-/) p. 99.

TZH

[Tamr The Nomad]

Buriat bows could be the answr, however. I would like to get a view of something geographicaly closer. I was thinking that since the Tatars I am interested in became muslims, they may have a more Turkish influence but I could also be totaly wrong.

I saw a picture of "mongolian" armor and a bow that looked more Tatar or Turkish than the more modern Mongolian bows. I know that the modern mongolian bows are not tha same that they used in the days of conquest.

http://depts.washington.edu/silkroad/mu ... /qing.html

ps
The more research I do the more I am proven right that people have more in common than they like to admit.

Peace!

[Bede]

There was a quiver and bow case featured in Wenwu which was brought by the Torghut when they returned to the Qing empire in the 1700s. It would have been indistinguishable from Turkish or Crimean Tatar equipment.

I looked at the web page and all the bows and quivers looked Qing inspired. This is not surprising considering how much the Mongol tribes were integrated into the Qing Banner system.

I remember the armour coming up for sale that is shown in the second panels. At the time, it looked as though it might have been pieces of an earlier horse armour that had been inexpertly relaced to built a cuirass. It is hard to tell with objects that have been modified like this whether it took place during its life time as a useful object or was added to increase its sale price later.

From what I have seen, there is a closer relationship between the Crimean Tatar bow and the earlier Yuan Dynasty bow depicted in art than the Qing bows for instance. Stephen has found bows that illustrate the variation that existed in the Mongol Empire. At this stage of research, it is hard to give a strict answer. My guess is that western Tatar bows would be closer to the Crimean model, but that the Torghut would have adopted the Qing equipment when they were absorbed into the Qing military. The Buriat bows have similarity to the late Mongol and Qing bows.

[Tamr The Nomad]

I doubt that I will find anything that is exact. I can't help but think that not only are there different cultural influences througout the empire and different kaganates; I also think there is variation among craftsmen. I have heard and read arguements about thumbring design and there I think it is the same thing. Things were taken in raids and on the battlefield.

There is a "Turkish War Bow" up for auction on ebay right now. Looks pretty good. has a couple holes in the horn. Let me know if someone from here bids on it.

Is there a big difference between bows for war, target shooting and hunting. Do all the traditional Tatar / Mongol bows require a long tillering process for stringing every time?

[Bede]

I think you would find war and hunting bows more similar to each other than target bows. Depending on the period and the wealth of the original owner, decoration and construction would vary. If you are a poor hunter building your own bow, you take what horn you can get (and use wood if you cannot get horn). The decoration would be dependent on wealth and spare time as well.

Target bows were built for stability and repeatability of action. Usually the target archer is shooting more arrows and needs these features. The bows are lighter because the arrows usually are too.

Composite bows were often left strung for extended periods. Flight bows and target bows were probably always unstrung after use, but war bows and hunting bows would be left strung for weeks. I have left a bow by Adam Karpowicz for three weeks without any trouble except a drop in draw weight. This stabilised early on and was not a problem.

[Tamr The Nomad]

That answered a question I have had for a long time. Thank you.

I had wondered how Steppe folks dealt with surprise raids on the encampments if they had to stop and string their bows.

Ok I am quite poor too so I have to ask. How well does a hornless bow respond to the repetitive draw and fire of target shooting?

One of these days I'm gonna figure out what style bow is most appropriate and find a bowyer.

[Sinsigel]

[quote]Composite bows were often left strung for extended periods. Flight bows and target bows were probably always unstrung after use, but war bows and hunting bows would be left strung for weeks. I have left a bow by Adam Karpowicz for three weeks without any trouble except a drop in draw weight. This stabilised early on and was not a problem.[/quote]

Bows for hunting and battle might be as resilient as the other bows. Then, what charactoristics would make war/hunting bows endure strong compression of the composite bows for several weeks?

[Bede]

Two things must be considered. Why would you unstring a bow immediately after use? What are the requirements of the war/hunting bow?

Unstringing composite bows is done to prevent warping in narrow limbed bows and to retain as much of their speed of recovery as possible. In flight and target shooting you would have colleagues and specialists to help you string bows and plenty of time to do it.

A war or hunting bow usually requires hitting power as well as accuracy. It requires stability as well. You could not afford to have your bow unstring itself in the middle of a battle. Hitting power is related to efficiency and increased draw weight. Stability usually comes at the cost of arrow speed.

There is always a trade off to make the best bow for the job at hand.

[Tamr The Nomad]

Can you post a pic from the book?
Library dos not have it.

WEAPONS-An international Encyclopedia from 5000 BC to AD 2000 (specially focused on british chrone territories:-/) p. 99.

[Bede]

Do you mean the Wenwu article?

[Stephen Selby]

On leaving hunting bows strung, I must say that most of the depctions I see of Turkic people with bows from the Tang period show them with their bows unstrung in a soft case, even when they're mounted. Here is an example.

[Bede]

Stephen,
You are right. Strung bow cases did not become popular again until the Song. They started to appear early and predominate by the 11th century.

I speculate that the bowyers were achieving a greater residual reflex which made it harder to brace the bows. However, there are Tang murals showing very reflexed bows in unstrung-bow cases.

[jiao]

can any one show the picture of tang dynasty bows? what form of hornbows in the china tang dynasty?

[Stephen Selby]

can any one show the picture of tang dynasty bows? what form of hornbows in the china tang dynasty?

I think there are some wall paintings such as those at Dunhuang which give an indication. This one is just after the Tang period.

[TZH]

This is a kitay type bow, isn't it?

TZH