Question about the Archaemenid Persian draw and thum-draw.

[Sinsigel]

In his book "Mounted archers of the Steppe BC600~BC1300"(Osprey Publishing, 2004), Antony Karasulas mentions the Persian draw, in which the archer lays his forefinger across the arrow "as if pointing toward". Wikipedia provides a 4th-century AD Sassanian dish showing such technique(See second picture.)

Nonetheless, was this draw used also during the Archaemenid dynasty of Persia? Sveral painting of greek vases and Alexander sarcophagus show Scythians using well-known mediterranean draw, and one Parthian ceramic plaque in British museum show parthian archer who is also using mediterranean draw.(See first picture)

Since these people were in close relationship with Archaemenid Persians, I've conjectured that Archaemenids might also have used such draw. However, I thought I should better ask experts about this matter, rather than giving vague guess by myself.

Another question is about the adoption of thumb draw in Middle-east Asia. From the evidence above and the fact that even Sassanians used two-fingered draw(I read this from Mr. Dwyer's thesis), it seems that thumb draw was adopted quite lately. When did the archers of Middle-east Asian began to use thumb draw?



#Source of the first picture: http://parthia.com/parthia_horses_burris.htm

Source of the second picture: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:E3_5 ... sanian.jpg

[Bede]

I agree with you that the most likely draw for the Achaemenid Persians was the Mediterranean one. It may have been two or three fingered if the Alexander Sarcophagus is accurate.

There is a strong possibility that the Sassanians had started to adopt the thumb draw from the Blue Turks in the last century of their rule. There are some rock reliefs from the time of Khosrow Parviz which look like a thumb draw to me. There was a lot of military interaction with the Turks in the east in the sixth and seventh century.

[jack farrell]

Andrew Hall has located a text which clearly indicates contemporaries of the dynastic Egyptians burying archers with thumb rings. -j-

[Bede]

Jack,
Do you have any details?

[Andrew Hall]

Bede, Jack

Sorry to disappoint, but the rings are not quite as early as dynastic Egypt. They are mentioned in a book with the nice short title of "Excavations Between Abu Simbel and the Sudan Frontier: Part 9: Noubadian X-Group Remains from Royal Complexes in Cemeteries Q and 219 and Private Cemeteries Q, R, V, W, B, J, and M at Qustul and Ballana" by Bruce B. Williams and are circa 4th century AD. The remains consist of some unusual composite bows, arrows, numerous quivers and a few stone rings.

The book states that the "archer's loose" from the X-Group period was based on the shape as used the Meroitic period (~300BC-350AD). The illustrated rings are roughly truncated-cone shaped with quite thick walls and made from diorite.

Regards

Andrew

[jack farrell]

Mea culpa -j-

[Sinsigel]

Truly, I was mistaken when I wrote about the adoption of thumb-draw into the Middle-east Asia. Recalling now, the ancient Assyrians also seem to have used thumb-draw, judging from the ancient reliefs.

But if so, why would other people of adjacent region would use mediterranean draw for centuries, if much useful thumb-draw was alredy known to them?


Sometime I just can't help myself from thinking bizarre questions.(-_-;)

[Bede]

The Assyrians used possibly two different styles of shooting if you believe the accuracy of the bas reliefs. When shooting left to right, they used a tertiary release according to Morse's classification. The irregular position of the bow string sometimes falsely gives the impression of a thumb draw. However when shooting from right to left, they nearly always used the three or four fingered Mediterranean release.

The tertiary release can also be identified because, in some reliefs of Assyrian kings, they hold spare arrows with the thumb of the drawing hand.

In the tertiary release you hold the arrow on the string, pinched between the thumb and fore finger, but the bow is drawn by the other three fingers on the string. Because of the unusual level of inconsistency in the position of the string in surviving reliefs, I feel that the Assyrians were probably using an archaic method of depiction rather than a literal one showing what they were doing. In which case the tertiary release was probably an attribute of ancient culture rather than a contemporary feature of archery.

The Tertiary Release is used in New Guinea to this day and is very effective. It may have died out from changes in culture rather than improvements of technique.

[Russ Mitchell]

I was taught to use the tertiary release, and have found that the degree to which my smallest finger was either involved, or else hanging out like shown in some of this artwork, was simply in how I drew (I usually draw to the chest, but occasionally draw up to the mouth). With only two fingers on the release, I find the release to be very crisp: maybe not as crisp as the thumb draw, but MUCH crisper than the mediterranean, which I abandoned wholesale the minute I learned the tertiary. (Thanks, Bede, now I know what to call it!)

Some of the modern string materials in the serving can really tear up your fingers this way... if your string has a really rough serving on it, gloves are a real life-saver.

[Bede]

Russ,
Have you considered making thumb stalls like the Bhutanese use. Instead of putting them on the first three fingers, you could put them on the last three. Your thumb and index finger would be free for complicated tasks like knot tying.

[Russ Mitchell]

Never really thought about it, since even a light pair of gloves was more than sufficient... but you're right, that would leave my hands more free. Interestingly, it's almost without exception the top side of the middle finger that gets torn up. The ring finger a little bit, but to a trivial level compared to the middle finger on any bow over 60 lbs. or so.

[Bede]

Russ,
are you putting much pressure on with the thumb and index finger through the arrow?

[Russ Mitchell]

Sorry for the slow reply: had to grade final exams.

Not much at all, Bede, just enough to get it in the nock. The Middle finger acts as a kind of trigger, and the ring finger as support for the middle. The little finger is only used if I'm really tired and don't have much grip strength that day.

Now, my hand position on the shaft will sometimes have to vary depending on how much clearance I've got on the nock before I'm mashing the fletching, in which case my hand winds up tilted slightly, and would look almost like Japanese shooting if you didn't know what you were looking at.

[Bede]

Thanks Russ.
I have a feeling that that the degree of participation of the thumb and forefinger in the drawing of the arrow may have varied between archers. Personally, I get little strength out of that part of the draw. Most of the pressure is taken by the middle and ring fingers for me too.

I first thought of the theory after seeing footage of new Guinea archers shooting. Someone demonstrated the technique for me, but at full draw from a distance it did look like a thumb draw in the open handed way that some archers use today.

[Russ Mitchell]

I have a colleague back in Hungary who thinks, based on conversations with some associates in Ryazan, that this was the standard draw for the western steppe and turkic tribes before the Mongols arrived. I have absolutely nothing to back something like that up, though, and don't know what he's got in terms of visual sources that would, either.