Strength and Penetration of Scythian Bows

[jack farrell]

If the Subeixi bow was constructed only of wood laminates, it does not seem possible that it could have drawn 31". This also appears unlikely for a sinew backed version. This would be very risky for a horn composite given the relative humidity of the bow's burial location near the Taklamakan Desert.

Considering that other Scythian bows are associated with Goroiti with lids which would put a much lower absolute size to the arrow, another model might be appropriate. We also do not have a date for the burial. Because of the size of the bow, it could represent an artifact of a date later than the Scythian culture. Scythian style bows remained popular for some time after the culture evolved.

It also seems inappropriate for a bow to be so curved, to be so difficult to manufacture, that it should lay in a straight line when unstrung. Almost surely this is from being strung at the time of burial. Since wood self bows are also found in the area from all periods, why go to all the trouble for an all wood laminate for a functional bow?

My theory: Among the Scythians, the bow was the symbol of authority to be handed down from father to son. When the father was burried, the son inherited the father's bow. The father would be buried with a substitute. Just as Hercules left his bow for his sons, to decide who was the most fit to become king. It was the ability to draw the bow that determined who should rule. To bury the actual bow would be unScythian.

See the Chasti Urn. The father gives the bow to his son while keeping another in his gorytus. -j-

[Adam Karpowicz]

Stephen:

This is the shape in full draw, an approximation, since I do not know exact measurements. I did not model the extreme recurvature of the tips, but this would not change much.

[Adam Karpowicz]

Jack:

The Subeixi bow is all we have for now. The other finds are not real bows, only grave goods.

It is interesting that if the bow was made without horn, the wood could probably survive the compression stresses (at about 1.5% max strain) with a very thick sinew layer. Assuming the deflex in the limbs was deliberate, but not as great as in the present condition.

I would rather think the bow is a true horn bow. I do not share your view about the extreme dryness being detrimental for the bows. I have around 20% relative humidity in my house over winter (read most of the year) and can still use the bows. I do not know what could happen at 0%RH...

As to the draw length/arrow length, I would think Bede and Stephen can answer this question much better. However, at the 51" length, a horn bow would indeed be drawn to 31" without problems. Lesser draw would not utilize the full bending ability of the composite.

I agree the deflex is not entirely manufactured, but acquired during use, normal for all horn bows. The problem is that if is this is true, then the initial draw weight of this bow would be much greater again. The 100lb I modelled was with an acquired string follow or a deliberate deflex. It is conceivable the bows were made with the front (inner) section of horns - this would also explain the triangular cross-section of limbs. If so, then the bow would be deflexed in the limbs from the start. The outer sections of limbs could then be made of wood/snew with no horn.

Adam

[Stephen Selby]

The 'crude length' of the Subexi bow (i.e. just setting a ruler against the extremities and measuring in a straight line) was 130cm, and the arrows were around 86cm (a couple of cm variation between arrows) including the iron tips.

[Adam Karpowicz]

Stephen:

The 130cm was given as the length along the curve. 119cm as the length in a straight line between the tips. I reproduced it exactly as given in Bede's article.

I will check the draw weight at 86cm draw.

Adam

[Adam Karpowicz]

It just occured to me the arrowhead length should be subtracted, How long were the arrowheads? And the depth of arrow nocks?

Adam

[jack farrell]

My copy of a probable copy of a Greek "Squat Lekythos attributed to the Painter of Oxford, 1920. Greek Attic. Early Classical, ca, 450 BCE, Terracotta..." Title is Artemis Running with her bow. After, From Myth to life; Images of Women in the Classical World, Caroline Houser.

Artemis, godess of the hunt and childbirth is shown persuing prey. She wears a panther skin to refer to her hunting prowess and her ties to Asia.

Sorry that I could not make out her draw hand better. Was working from a very small pic. Moms, no need to alter your daughter's physique to make this shot. Nice hunting dress! -j-

[Adam Karpowicz]

It is a great picture Jack. Note the length of the arrow. At full draw her bow, although smaller, would look very similar to the Subeixi bow.

Adam

[Stephen Selby]

How long were the arrowheads? And the depth of arrow nocks?

Say 4 cm for the socketed, iron arrowheads and 0.4cm for the depth of the nock.

I looked back at my sketches of the Subexi bow that I did at the Institute in Urumqi, and I see that I showed 130cm as the crude length.

In the image that Jack put up, you can see the grip on the bow limb that is clearly above the most acute part of the middle curve. I have seen this in other pictures. When I and Xu Kaicai (former Chinese national archery coach) looked that the Subexi bows, we were quite stumped at guessing how it was held, as there was no sign of a place that would have allowed a comfortable grip.

S.

[jack farrell]

Adam; This is a beautiful bow that Artemis draws. There are other Scythian bows with rather abrupt bends in the limbs. This one also lacks the curled recurves. Reminds me of sort of a double angular bow. Very fetching.

You are probably aware of late angular bows with somewhat "duckhead" siyahs which are even more curved than Scythian bow tips. These must have also had a deep groove in the curves to prevent the string from falling off. Though our best information is that the angular bow, ca. 1800 BCE, predated the earliest Scythian bows, ca. 800 BCE, by about a thousand years, the Duck head angular, ca. 700 BCE, and the scythian bow are contemporaneous to eachother.

So my next project is a reproduction of a Neo-Hittite duck head Angular composite with Ibex, the one illustrated in Von Luschan, 1898 will provide the prototype. The detail of the illustration is amazing, decoration and all. I will make a drawing soon and post it for all to see. -j-

[jack farrell]

Stephen and all; I have come to the working hypothsys that the manner of gripping a Scythian bow is an aiming technique for elevation. I think there are some references that will corroborate. There are many illustrations in artwork which show archers with Scythian-type equipment holding the bow above center, at the center and below center. It may likewise prove useful to think of these bows being symetrical or asymetrical, for the same reason.

My friend, Karasev, refers to a 30 years war that the Sakas had with the Parthians in the second century BCE and afterwards the Parthians began manufactureing their own bows of Scythian pattern of a larger size. This occured after the introduction of "Siberian" bows with horn lath reenforcements.

My thinking is that Greeks also made "Scythian" bows. It is just not believible that they used only imported composites. -j-

[Adam Karpowicz]

Stephen:

Thanks for the measurements. It means the draw length for this arrrow would be around 81cm. This would add a few pounds to the weight of the bow.

Jack:

I am looking forward to see your reproductions. Do you follow length/width/thickness dimensions of existing bows? If you have the dimensions, I could try to model the bows. Except for the shapes, I know very little about angular bows.

Adam

[redhawk]

hi Jack,

the very sharp almost semicircled recurves of these bows forced the string to stay in line,no need to make the grooves extra deep.I even wondered why this kind of recurve has disappeared cause it added a kind of eccentric action on the draw of the bow too.They are easy to do out of horn,if you you do them out of wood take care that the back-and the belly-side of the wood have a closed growthring all over its length,so the steam-bending will be successful.

I prefer to shot the scythians while holding them below the center,so the arrow was shot out of the center of the bow.There you have the longest possible string-arrow-contact.

I?m almost sure that the Greeks have started to build the scythian bows by their own and that they have developed their own version of this bow that maybe leads to the so-called Cupids bow.
On old paintings you can see that they were very similar.

Is there any painting of an etruscan bow?I remember that the ATARNO Zoran Pavlovic has posted that the scythian bows look almost like etruscan bows,which he has seen on an old painting.

[Murat ?zveri]

Hi everybody,

Very nice debate!

What I think is that heavy bows must have been used. As Adam says the Turkish-Ottoman bows have tremendous draw weights. The Ottoman ambassador who shot two flight arrows in front of the members of Toxophillus society in England used a bow in 65 pound range. But he admitted that he is not even a kemankes (cam-un-cash), a licenced archer and the distance he achieved would not be taken seriously. After all, the draw weight of the bow could have been measured for 28'' draw as it was usual in English longbows. Although it's not very clear how long Ottoman archers drew, the actual draw weight might have been slightly higher.

It's very well known that the flight archers (many of them were soldiers) were extremely strong. Tozkoparan has gained his nick name by breaking the beech bark covering the bows back, just because he grasped the grip too firm ("Toz" is the beech bark and 'Tozkoparan" means "the toz-ripper"). Miralem Ahmed Aga was known to be holding two sheeps in each hands on his shoulder height until they are skinned. Another one could bend horseshoes in his hands and this phenomenon has been witnessed several times.

If it comes to combat archery please keep in mind that the ancient warriors had to pierce the enemy's armor to eliminate it. Accuracy is essential but heavy bow-arrow combination was also a must to reach the enemy's body.

How they were able to draw so heavy bows is another question. As mentioned before some are born to be Hercules. There was a friend of mine who could easily perform 130 regular push-ups when he was only a 17 years old teenager. He didn't use to train regularly except playing soccer at weekends (once or twice a week). His muscle size was like of a bodybuilder. I also can remember another boy who was able to beat anybody in arm wrestling without any detectable effort. He was not a "sportman" neither. I weight trained with him once to see his performance with weights and realised that only some spesific muscle groups (forearm for example) are stronger than usual. Maybe that kind of people were selected as archers.

The draw weight an archer can handle is technique-dependent too. I shoot both olympic style, split finger instinctive and (very recently) Asian-Turkish style with a thumbring. My olympic recurve is a 40 pounder but it really makes me tired because I have to hold it steady several seconds during aiming. On the other hand I use a 50 pounder for instinctive shooting and my performance is usually better because I do not hold the string for long: I snap shoot. I think, the ancient warriors used to snap shoot too especially on horseback.

[jack farrell]

Redhawk; Can you discuss the making of the wooden core of a scythian bow? Are there two laths? And the grain? Are you also saying that you have made one with horn with no wood core? There were such creatures in the Persian world.

I don't have information on Etruscian bows. But of course, would be interested.

Adam, What dimentions do you need. I have the paper on many Angular composites. -j-