Hunnic Quiver

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Wed Jun 20, 2007 2:05 am

Jack,
I am making a point about using blanket terms when the majority of specialist literature isn't prepared to be that precise. The majority of Western Hun leaders have Germanic names, Attila, Rugila and Bleda for example. That might be because the contemporary historians Indo-Europeanised their names to make them more familiar to their readers. However, it does suggest that we should be careful when we refer to a race, a culture or a polity. They are not the same thing and there are many cross-overs between them.

For example, I write in English, read English literature and am part of an English-based culture, but I am not English and my Irish ancestors would be spinning in their graves if I suggested I was. That is to say, I am genetically Irish, linguistically English and culturally English-speaking Australian. I think we should show the same respect to the Xiongnu and the Huns, no matter how closely related they are.

There is a good summary of the scholarly position on Wikipedia on the net if you are interested.

jack farrell · Post by **jack farrell** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 3:13 am

Bede; From the point of view of an Australian of Irish ancestry speaking English looking at a two thousand year old name in Chinese, now Latinised, of an enemy nation refering to them as Xion slaves; might it not be politically correct to also refer to them from the point of view of a Russian- speaking Slavic /Tatar educator of Central Asian birth who refers to these same people as Hunns?

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 8:01 am

Jack,
I have no desire to argue with someone by proxy. We have drifted a long way from the point of this topic and don't seem to be advancing anyone's knowledge by this discussion.

Can you remember why I asked you if it was Huns in the West or Xiongnu in the East? You wrote:

Saka and Hunns were contemporaries/antagonists.

The Huns in the West appeared in the 3rd century in force. They fought the Alans who were probably Sarmatian which is a term used for the Saka in the West. From Roman and Greek sources, we have some idea of what kind of equipment the Alans used. They were known for their heavy cavalry wearing armour and carrying lances and long swords. There are engraved stones in the Crimea showing both the two-tubed quiver with a straight-eared bow and the shorter Scythian style bow in a small gorytus. The two-tubed quivers excavated in Xinjiang seem similar, as do the Roman and Palmyran bas-reliefs of two-tubed quivers. In a previous article I referred to them as gorytoi because in all the images I had seen there was an attached bow case.

Unfortunately, the Central Asian petroglyphs are hard to date. However, I do not see any reason to doubt that they could be depicting foot archers with quivers. I would really appreciate seeing a picture. I have some of your articles and will look through them to see if one has the images you mentioned.

Michal · Post by **Michal** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 9:43 am

I would like to ask, if there in there are any archeological findings of arteficially deformed skulls in area of Xiongnu early country.

Its considered to be typical, although not specific for Hunns in Europe.

thanks
M.

Orda Khan · Post by **Orda Khan** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 2:32 pm

Michal,
To the best of my knowledge there are not and as I understand, not all the Huns in the west followed this practice. I've read that certain Sarmatian tribes practiced head binding also, though of course this may have been copied from their Hunnic overlords. It may well have been an elitist thing that set one apart from a person of lower standing but at this point it's conjecture.
I watched a documentary a long time ago about Hunnic influence in Pannonia and the Balkans that touched on this subject. It is most frustrating that we have to rely on outside sources to gain information. There again it's all part of the mystery that makes the Huns and other horse archer nations such a fascinating subject.

Michal · Post by **Michal** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 7:45 pm

Yes Orda, it was not specific for Hunns, also in some Goths burials such a skulls were found.
The discussion above stimulated to that question, if it deals with relationship between Hsiungnu/Xiongnu and European Hunns, such a expresive sign would be checked. Heads of warriors figures on Stephens pictures seems turicephalic, but due to their helmets its not easy to recognize.

Orda Khan · Post by **Orda Khan** » Fri Jun 22, 2007 8:30 am

Of course it could also be suggested that head binding was adapted at some point during a westward migration. Personally, I tend to lean towards the XiongNu argument as a social elite/ruling class among a coalition of various steppe tribes.

Michal · Post by **Michal** » Fri Jun 22, 2007 8:48 am

I found interesting web site,
http://hsiungnu.chat.ru/

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 12:25 am

Michal,
Dr Miniaev (Minyaev in other transliterations) is a world authority on the Xiongnu and his web site is very useful. He helped me when I was writing about thumb rings by e-mailing me about the absence of rings in Xiongnu graves. He knows about all the new research and discoveries and publishes mainly in Russian. The New Books section of the site is very useful.

Michal · Post by **Michal** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 9:04 am

During searching for next Xiongnu informations i found theese pages with pictures of Noin Ula archeological objects.

http://depts.washington.edu/silkroad/mu ... inula.html
http://depts.washington.edu/silkroad/mu ... ongnu.html

Bede - it is very interesting that there are no thumbrings in XN graves. What do you think it means?
On friday i sent e mail request to Dr. Minayev. My questions dealed with deformed skulls and at the second with the dress of Xiongnu.
Today Dr. Minyaev kindly answered me that there are no findings of deformed skulls in region of Xiongnu, and that only one dress we have is from Noin Ula and is by his opinion chinese.

Orda: i have "Hunnic" bow too, made by Csaba Grozer (Composite Extra III.- 60 lbs) and as is evident i am looking for informations about other equipment as you do.

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 10:47 pm

My research was leading to the belief that thumb rings were not universal in the steppes north of China in the last millennium BCE. When I spoke to Professor V Kubrarev, he confirmed that in northern Turkish tombs of the 7-8th centuries CE he had found no archers rings. Later I discovered pictures of Dunhuang wall paintings of several decades earlier than the tombs showing the two finger Sassanian release. When the tombs from Xinjiang were published with European looking bodies, it confirmed a strong Western influence on the steppe north of China.

When Professor Miniaev confirmed there were no archers rings in the Xiongnu tombs he excavated, it fitted into a pattern. Later during the Turkish expansion into the Western Steppe, some tribes seemed to use thumb rings and others didn't. It appeared that tribes that originated closer to China or who had strong military interaction with China after the 4-5th centuries CE had thumb rings and the ones that had originated further north and west did not and showed more Iranian influence on their archery practice.

The more general use of archers rings in the Western Steppe looks to be a Mongol invasion effect. There were groups who migrated west with thumb ring technology before this time, but they did not have a major effect except on the Islamic world and Byzantium in the south.

TZH · Post by **TZH** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 7:36 pm

Michael, I have read your post on the szip, my suggestion to you is the orlat battle plake; on www.transoxiana.org, the warriors there are maybe from the middleor late -sarmatian period, but I think their equitment are close to the noble huns.

in the state.hermitage museum there are some artifacts from noin ula and from lop-nor too, but those from Noin Ula are almost surely from asian huns.

I have some pics from hunic (ore from the hun age) graves, I cuold post them for you (e-mail-adress!!:-) if you want.

TZH

TZH · Post by **TZH** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 7:37 pm

OK, Noin Ula deleted:-))))

Orda Khan · Post by **Orda Khan** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 8:05 pm

TZH,
Could you post them here maybe?

Michal · Post by **Michal** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 8:37 pm

Thanks TZH, i send my email to you by PM.
Bede: its very interesting, so close to China, fighting with them, possibly make some exchange as well but not influenced by their shooting style.
The carpets from Noin ula with fighting beasts motives, suggest similar mythology as scythians had. And that has, after some archeologists (prof. Rostovcev) roots in archaic mythology of Elam 3 th. BC. in southwest Iran area. Probably mythology is one of the strongest characteristics and marker of not only cultural but as well genetical roots.
Europeans looking bodies? Where can i read more about this topic?