I have seen a front movement of the draw arm before the shooting moment.
In the second pic the draw hand is about one or two cm in front in comparison with the last (pics uploaded in reverse order).
I shoot here with a male-sugakji ring.
What should I do to correct my technique?
Interesting is that in another movie that I have and I shot with a amgakji ring this mistake is absent or not visible.
bad loose
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ginni
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I believe my mistake is called "creep" or "forward loose".
In "Saracen Archery" book say that the release must be accomplished with a "backward punch" to avoid the tendency to creep or to make the forward movement visible (or maybe not so) in my technique.
But "creep" and "forward loose" is the same thing?
In "Saracen Archery" book say that the release must be accomplished with a "backward punch" to avoid the tendency to creep or to make the forward movement visible (or maybe not so) in my technique.
But "creep" and "forward loose" is the same thing?
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Bede
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Creep is allowing the tip of the arrow to ease forward just before you release. It leads to inaccuracy in the vertical plane because the arrow has varying amounts of acceleration. When shooting with a thumb ring, the best way to control creep is to draw to the same part of the bow-hand thumb every time. As long as you hold your hand the same way every shot, it should work.
Bede
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ginni
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My arrows often hit the bow limb, but I don't know why and what I am doing wrong.
I painted the limb and I was surprised seeing two marks on the arrow shaft, a little curved one in the front and one long and straight in front of the feathers.
One arrow have two marks on the back.
I know that using a thumb and a proper release the arrow don't touch the rest, so what I am doing wrong?
Why the front mark is curved?
I painted the limb and I was surprised seeing two marks on the arrow shaft, a little curved one in the front and one long and straight in front of the feathers.
One arrow have two marks on the back.
I know that using a thumb and a proper release the arrow don't touch the rest, so what I am doing wrong?
Why the front mark is curved?
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Orda Khan
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jack farrell
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Eugen; you are lucky that you painted the arrow rest as this is a good way to see where the arrow touches the bow. Hopefully you have noticed that the marks on the arrow are at the same place that the previous arrows were breaking. I had some discussion with ATARNITES in Korea about your shooting technique and it was mentioned that you might be pulling strongly to the side of the bow in the manner of Kyudo. I do not know about Korean technique but this might be a mistake and a dangerous one for the horn bow you are planning.
Possibly Thomas or others could comment on this aspect of shooting a Korean bow.
Does Turkish technique require pulling sideways on the string? -j-
Possibly Thomas or others could comment on this aspect of shooting a Korean bow.
Does Turkish technique require pulling sideways on the string? -j-
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ginni
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Jack!
I have tested that last time when I have shot.
If I shoot by pulling the side of the bow (that action put torque on the bow grip when I draw the bow), the arrow don't touch the rest, neither at the point or at the front of feathers, the string don't touch my fore arm and I feel little more hand shock.
The precision was increasing too.
So, my feel was that pulling sideway is an improuvement. I have carefully check the limbs looking for twisting and find nothing. But If I shoot left handed (bow grip in the right hand and raw with left hand), the limbs twist little. The string move on the pads about 3-4 mm.
Now I really don't know what is right, pulling or not pulling sideway?
I have tested that last time when I have shot.
If I shoot by pulling the side of the bow (that action put torque on the bow grip when I draw the bow), the arrow don't touch the rest, neither at the point or at the front of feathers, the string don't touch my fore arm and I feel little more hand shock.
The precision was increasing too.
So, my feel was that pulling sideway is an improuvement. I have carefully check the limbs looking for twisting and find nothing. But If I shoot left handed (bow grip in the right hand and raw with left hand), the limbs twist little. The string move on the pads about 3-4 mm.
Now I really don't know what is right, pulling or not pulling sideway?
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jack farrell
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Eugen: In the first photo of your shooting, the bow is almost a straight line meaning that it has moved into the same plane as the camera. You can see that the arrow has been released and is now in front of the bow. The other two pics have your body at the same angle with the photographer, but the bow is held in a flat plane with you, the shooter.
To me it appears as if the bow has twisted after your release. Is that usual for this type of bow? -j-
To me it appears as if the bow has twisted after your release. Is that usual for this type of bow? -j-
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ginni
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Jack,
As I have understood the korean technique, the bow must be twisted to the left so that the arrow do not hit the rest and is no paradox.
How strog that movement it must to be, I dont know.
I draw the bow and I twist a little the bow to the left. If the twist is to strong, the arrow can fly to left (I am right handed) and the bow is shaking a lot. If the twist if to weak, the arrow can hit the rest making noise and wobbling.
I try to twist the bow at the limit when the arrow don't touch the rest.
My technique is slowly improving, I can feel that (actually I don't feel, because the string don't touch anymore my forearm:D - few weeks ago I was using a bracer), but I am very teasing with my trivial questions.
I hope Thomas book will help.
As I have understood the korean technique, the bow must be twisted to the left so that the arrow do not hit the rest and is no paradox.
How strog that movement it must to be, I dont know.
I draw the bow and I twist a little the bow to the left. If the twist is to strong, the arrow can fly to left (I am right handed) and the bow is shaking a lot. If the twist if to weak, the arrow can hit the rest making noise and wobbling.
I try to twist the bow at the limit when the arrow don't touch the rest.
My technique is slowly improving, I can feel that (actually I don't feel, because the string don't touch anymore my forearm:D - few weeks ago I was using a bracer), but I am very teasing with my trivial questions.
I hope Thomas book will help.
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Jason DuLac
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- Location: MA USA
Eugen,
How's this problem comming for you? Have you solved the arrow hitting the side of the bow problem yet? Was Thomas' book helpful for you?
I've had this problem and have eliminated it (mostly) with a few things:
1. Arrows must be MUCH stiffer than normal spine stiffness when shooting with a thumbring. I use arrows spined for a 60-65# bow for my 42# Saluki Turk. This also applies for low performance bows like my kid's 25# bow which I use arrows spined for 35-45#. If the spine is not stiff enough, the arrows are MUCH more likely to slap the side of the bow.
2. I spent some time with a Japanese horsearchery (yabusame I think) black belt with 15 years experience shooting Yumi bows with the thumb and she talked about pointing/pushing the thumb at the target. This creates that torque that you were talking about and helps clear the arrow from the flight of the arrow as it leaves the bow. This creates the follow through that you see with the yumi bow shooters as the string flips to the side and ends with the bow facing the archer.
3. I've been doing the Japanese technique along with a little pressure from the ring and little fingers on the bow grip. This causes the upper limb to tip forward in the follow through. I find this helpful with arrow clearance too.
Hope this was helpful! Please let me know if you have had success with other techniques as well, as I'm always trying to reduce arrow slap issues.
J.
How's this problem comming for you? Have you solved the arrow hitting the side of the bow problem yet? Was Thomas' book helpful for you?
I've had this problem and have eliminated it (mostly) with a few things:
1. Arrows must be MUCH stiffer than normal spine stiffness when shooting with a thumbring. I use arrows spined for a 60-65# bow for my 42# Saluki Turk. This also applies for low performance bows like my kid's 25# bow which I use arrows spined for 35-45#. If the spine is not stiff enough, the arrows are MUCH more likely to slap the side of the bow.
2. I spent some time with a Japanese horsearchery (yabusame I think) black belt with 15 years experience shooting Yumi bows with the thumb and she talked about pointing/pushing the thumb at the target. This creates that torque that you were talking about and helps clear the arrow from the flight of the arrow as it leaves the bow. This creates the follow through that you see with the yumi bow shooters as the string flips to the side and ends with the bow facing the archer.
3. I've been doing the Japanese technique along with a little pressure from the ring and little fingers on the bow grip. This causes the upper limb to tip forward in the follow through. I find this helpful with arrow clearance too.
Hope this was helpful! Please let me know if you have had success with other techniques as well, as I'm always trying to reduce arrow slap issues.
J.
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ginni
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Jason,
I push the grip with the middle, ring and little finger in the lower part of the grip and the arrow have a high angle with the string. The index is not used.
I use only high spine arrows, from 105 to 135 lbs, for my 84 lbs. bow.
A have seen that the stronger is going better, but all have marks.
The marks are near the serving zone in the front of the feathers, the stiffer have the mark forward, to the point, the lower spined arrows have the mark behind the serving.
But they all slap.
I will try some bamboo arrows, maybe that more elatic shafts work better than pine.
I still dont have the Korean Archery book, but hope I will get it soon.
I push the grip with the middle, ring and little finger in the lower part of the grip and the arrow have a high angle with the string. The index is not used.
I use only high spine arrows, from 105 to 135 lbs, for my 84 lbs. bow.
A have seen that the stronger is going better, but all have marks.
The marks are near the serving zone in the front of the feathers, the stiffer have the mark forward, to the point, the lower spined arrows have the mark behind the serving.
But they all slap.
I will try some bamboo arrows, maybe that more elatic shafts work better than pine.
I still dont have the Korean Archery book, but hope I will get it soon.
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M Hardman
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- Location: Bristol, England
Eugen,
I preparation for going indoors this year I've switched to some aluminium sets of arrows, as my wooden arrows (75-80 spine) break on the target at close distances, from my 50lb Turkish bow. (I wouldn't ordinarily like using Ali's, but I don't want splinters or worse flying back at fellow archers). Using the ali's I've had some quite amazing results, the shortest and lightest are best and I can aim over my hand up to 80 yards.
Quite surprisingly, the spine seems to have little to no effect on the actual flight of the arrow, and only the direction was effected. I think length might be more important that spine, as the shortest arrows (made for use with 20-30lb Mediterranean draw) performed the best.
Perhaps you could try some Ali's and see if you still get slapping then?
Of course, I only draw about 28" now, so the patterns might change on longer draws.
Good luck
Mike
I preparation for going indoors this year I've switched to some aluminium sets of arrows, as my wooden arrows (75-80 spine) break on the target at close distances, from my 50lb Turkish bow. (I wouldn't ordinarily like using Ali's, but I don't want splinters or worse flying back at fellow archers). Using the ali's I've had some quite amazing results, the shortest and lightest are best and I can aim over my hand up to 80 yards.
Quite surprisingly, the spine seems to have little to no effect on the actual flight of the arrow, and only the direction was effected. I think length might be more important that spine, as the shortest arrows (made for use with 20-30lb Mediterranean draw) performed the best.
Perhaps you could try some Ali's and see if you still get slapping then?
Of course, I only draw about 28" now, so the patterns might change on longer draws.
Good luck
Mike
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ginni
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Mike,
I have seen a short movie with a Japanese archer shooting in slow motion and the arrows have a complex movement.
I think that one movement is specific to asian technique and that movement can do that arrow breakage at short distances.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNI9BG87qcI
I can see four distinct motions.
First is the movement from bow to target, a straight line aprox. movement.
Second is the rotation movement, the spine like a bullet,
Third is the oscillation movement, that movement is generating the paradox.
Ad the fourth is that specific movement, the arrow make a oscillation like a pendulum around the mass center point of the arrow and I think the bow side twist generate that oscillation.
So the arrow at short distances will hit the target like in the movie, not straight but oblique, and will break. That is the reason why the Chinese made that huge fletching for arrows used at close range shooting.
I believe that if must to shoot at close range with thumb, a good idea will be to put larger feathers to the shafts.
Aluminium is not an option to me, first because they usually dont made 33" shafts and second is the spine. I doubt that are available shafts with 120-130# spine. The third reason is the price, one self aluminium shaft cost like 20 pine shafts that I use.
Succes to the contest!
I have seen a short movie with a Japanese archer shooting in slow motion and the arrows have a complex movement.
I think that one movement is specific to asian technique and that movement can do that arrow breakage at short distances.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNI9BG87qcI
I can see four distinct motions.
First is the movement from bow to target, a straight line aprox. movement.
Second is the rotation movement, the spine like a bullet,
Third is the oscillation movement, that movement is generating the paradox.
Ad the fourth is that specific movement, the arrow make a oscillation like a pendulum around the mass center point of the arrow and I think the bow side twist generate that oscillation.
So the arrow at short distances will hit the target like in the movie, not straight but oblique, and will break. That is the reason why the Chinese made that huge fletching for arrows used at close range shooting.
I believe that if must to shoot at close range with thumb, a good idea will be to put larger feathers to the shafts.
Aluminium is not an option to me, first because they usually dont made 33" shafts and second is the spine. I doubt that are available shafts with 120-130# spine. The third reason is the price, one self aluminium shaft cost like 20 pine shafts that I use.
Succes to the contest!
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Matt Prickett
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- Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 8:48 pm
- Location: Ohio/USA
Ginni
Here is jsut some things to think about, Since I am shooting the same bow you are, Although, I am only drawing 76# @ 30",with a thumbring. But i was having some arrow slap, And I came to the conclusion it was being coused by my release. I worked on it and it helped but I still noticed That I still got it one every 3rd shoot or so. The arrow was being drawn across the chin very much like in your pictures. Then I was watching the Hungrians shoot on YouTube, and decided to try a high anchore. Although I do not anchore as high as them, I go to my ear lobe. But this completly got ride of the arrow slap.
The otherthings is since everyone has told and what I have read in older text. That spine does not matter, You jsut have to have enough to keep the arrow from exploding. I decided to make some from 45 - 49# spine 23/64" shafts and made chested arrows. They fly great, I am now using them for deer hunting. I mention this their is an spin you don't want to go under, But I also believe the is a spine weight you don't want to go over with relevance to bow weight. As you said and arrow makes alot of different movements when the string is release. I beleive to stiff of a spine will reduce the amount of recover that the arrow needed.
Just a thought.
Matt
Here is jsut some things to think about, Since I am shooting the same bow you are, Although, I am only drawing 76# @ 30",with a thumbring. But i was having some arrow slap, And I came to the conclusion it was being coused by my release. I worked on it and it helped but I still noticed That I still got it one every 3rd shoot or so. The arrow was being drawn across the chin very much like in your pictures. Then I was watching the Hungrians shoot on YouTube, and decided to try a high anchore. Although I do not anchore as high as them, I go to my ear lobe. But this completly got ride of the arrow slap.
The otherthings is since everyone has told and what I have read in older text. That spine does not matter, You jsut have to have enough to keep the arrow from exploding. I decided to make some from 45 - 49# spine 23/64" shafts and made chested arrows. They fly great, I am now using them for deer hunting. I mention this their is an spin you don't want to go under, But I also believe the is a spine weight you don't want to go over with relevance to bow weight. As you said and arrow makes alot of different movements when the string is release. I beleive to stiff of a spine will reduce the amount of recover that the arrow needed.
Just a thought.
Matt
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Jason DuLac
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- Location: MA USA
Eugen,
"84 lbs. bow."
Just after I hit the 'send' button, I remembered that you shoot 84# and therefor would need a REALLY stiff arrow!
Sounds like you grip the bow pretty much exactly as I do. I'm wondering how much pressure you are putting on the bow grip? As I've been experimenting with this, I'm coming to the conclusion that too much pressure on these grip points creates tension in the whole bow hand/arm that may add to arrow/bow impact. I'm finding that a LIGHTER grip, with the same pressure points on the grip, very helpful in avoiding the arrow slap.
The grip is VERY loose as I'm coming to full draw and then I point my thumb toward the target, JUST A LITTLE and give that LIGHT squeeze with the lower two or three fingers as I release. The pressure from all parts of the grip is VERY LOOSE. I believe this helps the bow move itself out of the arrows path, with a LITTLE help from our muscle tension as I come to full draw.
BTW, that's a great video of the Japanese yumi bow shooter! Too bad it's so dark though... I went to the company who made that video (phototron.com I think) website and they had a bunch of other REALLY cool slow motion video in their 'Gallery'. Non archery related though...
Hey Matt!
I got your reply to my PM! Glad to hear things are good and that you're busy!
I can't remember. Are you still using the thumbring with the arrow on the same side of the bow as with split finger shooting? If so, your arrow dynamics would be completely different than 'normal' thumbring shooting or 'normal' split finger shooting for that matter! It would also explain why you're able to shoot such light spined arrows. Of course your form/technique could be so perfect that you can shoot ANY spined arrow from your bow and it wouldn't matter!
J.
"84 lbs. bow."
Just after I hit the 'send' button, I remembered that you shoot 84# and therefor would need a REALLY stiff arrow!
Sounds like you grip the bow pretty much exactly as I do. I'm wondering how much pressure you are putting on the bow grip? As I've been experimenting with this, I'm coming to the conclusion that too much pressure on these grip points creates tension in the whole bow hand/arm that may add to arrow/bow impact. I'm finding that a LIGHTER grip, with the same pressure points on the grip, very helpful in avoiding the arrow slap.
The grip is VERY loose as I'm coming to full draw and then I point my thumb toward the target, JUST A LITTLE and give that LIGHT squeeze with the lower two or three fingers as I release. The pressure from all parts of the grip is VERY LOOSE. I believe this helps the bow move itself out of the arrows path, with a LITTLE help from our muscle tension as I come to full draw.
BTW, that's a great video of the Japanese yumi bow shooter! Too bad it's so dark though... I went to the company who made that video (phototron.com I think) website and they had a bunch of other REALLY cool slow motion video in their 'Gallery'. Non archery related though...
Hey Matt!
I got your reply to my PM! Glad to hear things are good and that you're busy!
I can't remember. Are you still using the thumbring with the arrow on the same side of the bow as with split finger shooting? If so, your arrow dynamics would be completely different than 'normal' thumbring shooting or 'normal' split finger shooting for that matter! It would also explain why you're able to shoot such light spined arrows. Of course your form/technique could be so perfect that you can shoot ANY spined arrow from your bow and it wouldn't matter!
J.