mediterranean and thumb-draw on horseback?

Sinsigel · Post by **Sinsigel** » Sat Nov 11, 2006 12:17 pm

The first time I'd become aware of the effect of the difference of the draw on horseback, was when I read from one Korean archery-related book. The book was saying that it would be impossible to perform horseback archery with the mediterranean draw, since the draw will not make the archer comfortably hold the arrow against the violent vibration of a galloping horse.

However, I became very dubious about it, after seeing the the acient artifact describing parthian archer with three-finger draw, and learning that scythians might have used the same draw.(Mr. John Gibson Warry says in his book "Warfare in the Classical World" parthians might have introduced the thumbring between 200~100 b.c.)

I've heard that Mr. kassai of Hungary could shoot with the mediterranean way on horseback, but I've had no chance to see the details of it.

To say short, was using mediterranean draw on horseback possible? And how do the effect of the two different draw - the mediterranean, and the thumb-draw - on horseback differ?

Pardon me for asking another minor question.(-_- ;)

Uli · Post by **Uli** » Sat Nov 11, 2006 3:53 pm

He can do 5 arrows in 7.38 seconds while on gallop
..and hits the target with all of them.
whoelse is gonna do that with a thumb ring ?

Stephen Selby · Post by **Stephen Selby** » Sun Nov 12, 2006 2:54 am

Mediterranian draw is possible on horseback. But there are one or two horseback archery tricks that work better with a thumb draw.

The first is to grasp the arrow nocked against the grip with the bow hand so that the draw hand is free to do something else. (Using the Mediterranean draw, it is still possible; but you would have to have the arrow on the opposite side of the grip from 'normal'). The second trick is holding three arrows in the draw hand while you shoot.

Angela · Post by **Angela** » Mon Aug 06, 2007 9:37 am

Stephen Selby wrote: The second trick is holding three arrows in the draw hand while you shoot.

Hi,
in the draw hand? Do you perhaps have a (close up) picture for that? Over here (Germany) the mediterranean draw ist more or less standard for horseback archery, but quite a few of us are trying out the thumb draw as one could potentially reload much faster as you don't have to "thread" the arrow through the bow, if you know what I mean. Only the problem is where to hold the other arrows (reloading from the quiver just isn't fast enough). People have suggested holding them in the bow hand like we usually do when shooting med-style, but vertical to the bow instead of horizontally. So it would interest me how to hold them in the draw hand without them getting in the way?

Thanks

Angela

P.S. Here's a clip of our last competition, with everybody using the mediterranean draw:
Mounted Archery Competition Storkow/Germany

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Mon Aug 06, 2007 11:59 am

If you shoot with the Mediterranean draw you can hold arrows in the draw hand with the thumb against the palm of the hand. It you shoot with the thumb draw, you can hold the arrows near the points with the little and ring fingers as the Japanese do. This is shown on lustre ware plates from Kashan in Iran.

However, the design of open quivers from the 13th century onward made this unnecessary because you could draw almost as fast from a quiver that only covered half the arrow.

Angela · Post by **Angela** » Mon Aug 06, 2007 1:56 pm

Bede wrote:you shoot with the thumb draw, you can hold the arrows near the points with the little and ring fingers as the Japanese do. This is shown on lustre ware plates from Kashan in Iran

Thanks! Do you perhaps have a link to a picture of one of those plates, as I still can's really visualize how this works. Drawing from a short quiver is probably a lot easier, but I find it slower and more fiddly when your eyes are on the target (particularly if you're turned round for the parthian shot). So I'm trying to find the ideal method which lets me reload as fast as possible with the thumb draw... The method you describe sounds very interesting, I think it would be worth giving it a try!
Greets
Angela

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 7:54 am

Angela,
I will take some pictures if I can. I think that the plate is somewhere on the net, but I have copies of it in books.

Short quivers set in the right position and at the correct angle are very easy to use, but many reconstructions have the straps in the wrong position for horseback use. I never look at the quiver when I draw an arrow. I have the straps set so that the quiver presents the shafts just where my hand falls when I reach for an arrow. Using Turkish style, the outside pocket and the main opening of the quiver allow you to have at least two types of arrows that are easy to find by feel.

Regarding the Parthian shot, I draw the arrow while facing forward and turn at the waist to complete the draw. Often Turkish archers wore a shield on their back while shooting. This meant they had some protection while facing away from their pursuers.

temren · Post by **temren** » Thu Aug 09, 2007 8:47 am

If I may, Angela below is a video I posted before. It shows Murat shooting on foot with 2 spare arrows in the draw hand.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNK-6Hn0uiw

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Thu Aug 09, 2007 10:43 pm

Temren,
Murat is shooting very much as I have seen in the painted pottery illustrations. Personally, I feel that you get a better thumb lock by holding the arrows between the ring and small fingers because the middle and ring fingers can then provide a firmer support for the thumb.

temren · Post by **temren** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 5:02 am

Hi Bede,

My experience is, it doesnt really matter where or how many arrows you hold as long as you hold them very firmly and hold them a little further away from their tips. I for one am able to shoot with four spare arrows. Two between the little and ring fingers, two between the ring and middle fingers.

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Sat Aug 11, 2007 8:15 am

Temren,
I agree. With bows below 80 pounds, it is quite easy to hold four arrows in the way you suggest.

Angela · Post by **Angela** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 7:10 am

Thank you all very much, now I get a better picture of how this technique works. Now I just have to put it into practice (very fiddly if you're used to the mediterranean style, but I hope I'll learn... Someday

)

Murat ?zveri · Post by **Murat ?zveri** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 1:40 pm

Hello Angela,

It was Stephen Selby who first introduce me this technique when he was in Istanbul two years ago. On the way of reviving Turkish traditional archery we keep searching all available sources and last year we found a (picture of a) coin from Seljuks showing a mounted archer at full draw with two more arrows in the draw hand.

Although we're not sure whether the weaponary in Seljuk army was uniform, only a few different type of Turkic bows must have been used, including the ones with bulky-on-the back grips like the later Ottoman bows. Such a grip would not allow the archer to hold the arrows in he bow hand and of course a thumb release would make it easy and possible to load the bow that way.

After all, I'm still not sure how an archer who shoots with three fingers and hold the arrows in the bow hand would slip a broadhead-tipped arrow out of the palm. It seems only be possible with target or field points. Despite the fact that Native Americans have shot that way on buffalo hunts I find it quite difficult and unergonomic. It may be the "bird points" as the white Americans have named -the very narrow broadheads- which allowed them to load their bows from the bow hand. However, the depiction on this Seljuk coin is a hunting scene indicated by the arrow head (fork-like head for small game) and shows that broadheads can simply be shot when the arrows are held in the draw hand.

Here, you'll find an article of mine with the photograph of this coin.

http://www.turkishculture.org/pages.php ... ildID1=170

I have been shooting and teaching this technique for one year and we've tried that with broadhead tipped arrows as well. It works flawlessly. Since I'm not a rider I don't know how it feels on horseback but theoretically it's a good combination of thumb release which stabilize the arrow during hold-draw-release circle due to the pressure of index finger to the arrow.

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 10:38 pm

Murat,
Your article is very comprehensive. The Seljuk coin is corroborated by some archers shown on metalwork as well as the Kashan plate I mentioned earlier in the thread. It looks like holding arrows in the drawing hand was very widespread among thumb ring users.

The American Indians used a much shorter draw on horseback than the Turks. Perhaps they did not grasp their bows as strongly as was the habit in the Middle East. This may have an effect on how comfortable it is to hold the arrows in the bow hand.

Murat ?zveri · Post by **Murat ?zveri** » Fri Jun 13, 2008 9:26 am

Thank you Bede.

That's right. Buffalo hunters have had short, sinew-backed, short-drawn and low poundage bows. The very short shooting distance and the small hunting points allow them to reach the vitals through ribs. Holding the grip firm or loose may have an effect on comfort but the main point I'm wondering is how they pull the broadhead-tipped arrows without cutting their fingers.