bad loose

Orda Khan · Post by **Orda Khan** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 3:51 pm

My nocking point is 1/8" to 1/4" above 90 degrees. At 90 degrees there is a porpoising of the arrow.

ginni · Post by **ginni** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:04 pm

My nock is about 1,5" above the 90 degrees point.
If I put the arrow 5 mm under the nocking point, the arrow would scrap my thumb.

I think there are two factors that requiring such a high nicking point.

The lower limb of my bow is much stronger than the upper limb and the with grip hand I push the bow in the lower part of the grip.

So at full draw the lower limb is much bent than the upper.

I don't know why the koreans chose such tillering and technique, but if I push the grip low I feel like the arrow is little bit faster than pushing high on the grip.

Just an feeling, I have no chrono.

Jason DuLac · Post by **Jason DuLac** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 8:27 pm

Eugen,

Is that 1.5 inches above the 90 degree mark? You wrote 1,5" and wasn't sure what you ment.

J.

ginni · Post by **ginni** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 8:30 pm

Yes, one inch and half.

Orda Khan · Post by **Orda Khan** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 3:25 pm

I've not used a Korean bow but I think an inch and a half is excessive.

ginni · Post by **ginni** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 8:38 pm

I shot today few arrows after work and I shot pretty well (for my standards).
Still got some touching noise, but that not affect the fly.

I shot only with three arrows from 30 meters.
Usually two arrows near the cd and one fly; that is happening often, even when I have one of my best days I shot some fly arrows. I have no consistency.

Orda Khan · Post by **Orda Khan** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 9:55 pm

I'd say that was pretty damn accurate shooting for 30m myself. As for the one wayward arrow, I like to think of that as the 'bring you back to earth' arrow. Just when you think 'I'm invincible!' that arrow lets you know you are not

ginni · Post by **ginni** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 5:28 am

Oh yes!

I just have thought "how good I am" and the next flew into the bushes.

Jason DuLac · Post by **Jason DuLac** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 12:29 pm

Eugen,

Looks like pretty good shooting at 30m to me!

I nock my arrows about 5-10mm above 90 degrees, but shoot a 54" Saluki Turk off the knuckle. Why do you nock so high again?

J.

ginni · Post by **ginni** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:18 pm

I shoot with the arrow over my thumb, without glove or ring or any protection.
I just chose the point where the arrow is going clean, without touching my thumb.

Matt Prickett · Post by **Matt Prickett** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 3:46 pm

I'm not sure if this 1/2" measurement is correct, It really is determined by the width of a mans four fingers. They balance the bow on the side of the index finger then roll their hand flat, and where the pinky finger touches that is their nocking point. Their is a pictorial of these in Thomas Duvernays book Korean traditional Archery.

Matt

M Hardman · Post by **M Hardman** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 4:58 pm

On the nocking height, I have seen modern archers using compound bows with nocking heights larger than 1.5 inches above 90 degrees, so its not unheard of.

Mike

Jason DuLac · Post by **Jason DuLac** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 5:25 pm

Eugen,

I was re-reading all that we've been writing about here and also looked at your pictures again. I've thought about it all and came up with a few things related to your first problems of 'string creep', bow/arrow contact and string arm elbow drop. You may already be aware of all of these, but maybe you'll find something helpful. Here goes! :

1. Forget about shooting at any distance beyond 10m. Stay REAL close and work on form. I'd go with 5m and stay this close for a few weeks, maybe longer and come back to close shooting frequently to work on form.

2.FOCUS ON WHAT YOUR STRING ARM ELBOW IS DOING as you draw. If you keep it pointing 'up' as high as you can as you draw you will force your body to use more back muscle and less arm muscle. This may feel weird at first but before long your elbow will be in a nice straight line with the arrow and bow arm.

3. PUSH YOUR LEFT THUMB KNUCKLE TOWARD THE TARGET when you are at full draw (as though you were pointing toward the target with your thumb). Hold the rest of the bow fairly loosely with a little bit of pressure on the little and ring fingers.

4. Imagine pulling' your string arm elbow 'up and back' just before and as you are releasing the string.

5. Prevent your bow arm shoulder (humorous/scapula joint) from pressing up/in toward the side of your face, by tightening your left scapula a bit and just keeping the shoulder joint 'down'.

Steps #3 and #4 are largely mental exercises, but if you keep them in mind your body will do them a little bit. After many shots you should start to get a 'feel' how much pressure on the bow hand thumb/grip you need to get a 'clean' shot with little or no arrow/bow banging.

Step #3 notes: Upon release, your upper bow limb should point toward the target a bit and your string may swing to the right side of the bow a little bit. This is from the slight pressures of the bow hand, while at the same time keeping the grip fairly loose. These bow hand 'pressures' help the bow move away from the arrow upon release and the fairly loose grip allows the bow to swing freely away form the arrow flight path.

Step #4 notes: Keeping in mind that your elbow should point up will cause you to use your back muscles more and your arm muscles less. I can't tell you how many times I've heard archery coaches saying, 'Use your back muscles more!' but its really hard to think about your back muscles as you draw the bow! Instead of trying to think about my back; I have found that if I think about what my DRAW ARM ELBOW is doing, I use more upper back muscles and less arm muscles.

Just before you release think about having your DRAW ARM ELBOW move back just a little bit (like you are elbowing someone who is standing behind you in the nose!). This will help with two things: 1. Reduces lateral 'plucking' of the string which can lead to the arrow hitting the bow. and 2. It will help prevent string 'creep' at full draw.

Step #5 notes: This just helps keep your body and arrow in better alignment with the target which is ultimately good for consistency of draw length and (I think) preventing arrow/bow contact.

If you want to follow any of my suggestions, I would INTEGRATE ONE STEP AT A TIME!!!! There is a lot of information here and too much to do all at once! Eventually they become part of your instinctive form that you can do without thinking about.

I really enjoy getting close to the target and practicing like this! I call it 'archery yoga' because, like yoga, you have to bring your mind 'into' what your body is doing and take it 'away' from the target. I often practice 'archery yoga' with my eyes closed.

My wife took some video of me shooting the other day. As soon as I get it into my computer and edited, I'll post it on youtube. I have an old video there now, but I think my form is not good in it.

Last winter a Chinese thumb release master told me that my form was lousy! I'm sure he was (and is) correct to some degree.

but he also suggested I think of my shooting like this: Holding a tiger by the tail. It actually made sense to me. If I understood him correctly, the tiger is the bow/arrow and it wants to attack the target but I am holding the tiger by the tip of its tail. As my grip slips off the tail, the tiger takes off like a bolt! This analogy gave me the feeling of the dynamic tension required in a clean release and helps me visualize and feel each shot. Each arrow is a tiger I hope he sees and makes more helpful suggestions on my new video.

I post all this with deep humility and the knowledge that there probably are better ways to shoot with the thumbring, but this is what I'm doing now that has been helpful for me. It is a conglomerate of information gained from talking with, watching and reading about several masters and fellow thumbring archers who are still working it all out. Any constructive critiques of this method are HIGHLY WELCOME! Anything to improve my own shooting!

Keep us posted Eugen!

J.

ginni · Post by **ginni** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 8:32 pm

Jason,

Thank you for your advices!

Is very interesting that almost all you said actually I try to keep in my mind when I am going to shooting.

Except the point 5, I am not sure that I understood right your words, I try to follow that rules every time.

Now I will try to check my left shoulder to see if I do that mistake. It can be, when I learnt to keep the left elbow pointed to left, not down, maybe I made that shoulder movement and I don't know.

I feel like my problems comes when, from some unknown reason, I cannot concentrate at my form. I try, but the target obsess me so much and the frustration is so big that even I start drawing with form in my mind, when I reach the full draw I think only at the target and the arrows will go anywhere but not in the target.

When my mind is clean and calm I can concetrate at my form with good results. If I can keep in my mind only the form, without thinking at the target, usually I will get a good shot.

All that things, elevating the elbow, drawing with back, pointing the target with the thubm, pushing low the grip, smooth release, punch back, all these come together wtihout problems if I am calm.

About close shooting. At 10 meters I get 100% breakage. At 15 meters no arrow will survive at 2 shots. Only 20 meters is a safe distance for my arrows.

Please tell me, do you keep the string and the arrow in touch with you face like the Koreans?

With the sugakji ring I had no problem to do that, even with little pressure with the string on my cheek, but with amgakji I dont feel safe.

Jason DuLac · Post by **Jason DuLac** » Sun Oct 28, 2007 3:11 am

Eugen,

"About close shooting. At 10 meters I get 100% breakage. At 15 meters no arrow will survive at 2 shots. Only 20 meters is a safe distance for my arrows."
-Do you know what 're-bar' is? It is steel bars about 1/2" thick that they use as extra support for concrete cement structures. I think you should try fletching up and shooting that!!!

Seriously though, have you tried Easton aluminum 2317s, 2419s or 2613s sized aluminum arrows? I'd recommend the 2419s. They won't brake at 10m!

"I try, but the target obsess me so much and the frustration is so big that even I start drawing with form in my mind, when I reach the full draw I think only at the target and the arrows will go anywhere but not in the target.
When my mind is clean and calm I can concetrate at my form with good results. If I can keep in my mind only the form, without thinking at the target, usually I will get a good shot."
-I rarely say this to people, but here goes: I know exactly how you feel

It sounds like something called TARGET PANIC. Many archers have it. I have it too, although not so bad and not very often any more. If you are familiar with psychology at all you might understand the term 'stimulus response'. It means that when your brain receives a certain 'stimulation' it causes a physical reaction or 'response'. In our case when our brain perceives (sees) the target in line with the drawn bow/arrow, it sends a signal for us to release the arrow, even if we aren't at full draw or fully 'settled' in on the bullseye. The result is that we miss! The stimulation of having the target and bow/arrow lined up is to much and our brain seeks release the only way it knows how; by releasing the arrow. The stress can be made worse by having people watching you shoot, increasing draw weight, increasing shot distance, being hung over from too much alcohol (like I was the other day)

not getting enough sleep and probably a million other things. I've been dealing with it for over 25 years

AARRGH

There are ways of easing it or even getting rid of it though. I recomend a book by a sports psychologist named 'Jay Kidder' He's studied target panic alot and really knows his stuff. I can't remember the name right now, but will post it later. The way that works best for me is to get between 5 adn 10 meters away and simply work on form. When you're that close your connection to the target is very strong and there is little stress. This allows you to have MUCH better shooting form. I work on developing 'muscle memory' at close range working on good shooting form a lot. Then I take a step back and do the same. then another step back and so forth. It depends on the archer, but it may take months of slowly doing this. If you start to feel the TARGET PANIC coming back, get closer to the target. Close enough to not feel it anymore. Some people feel target panic no matter how close they get and need a blind fold to start with! Then they take off the blind fold, then start moving back. Again, this can take days, weeks or even months!

J.