Identifying materials on an old whistling arrow

[Peter Dekker]

Hi Jack, good to hear from you again!

Well it occurred to me that Mongolian archery with its heavy arrows with large blunts would be perfectly suited to hunting marmots. I have no proof, just

This sounds very plausible. I've been translating regulations for 64 Manchu arrows in a mid. 18th cent. text where there are in fact such arrows listed. According to the text dating from 1759 they were used to "shoot rabbits on rocky terrain" and mentioned elsewhere to have been adapted from the Mongols. The Manchus originally used "rabbit fork" arrows for hunting them in the woods but anything sharp doesn't last long on the rocky steppes. When I was in Inner Mongolia I wrecked numerous sharp arrows on the ground myself there as well.

The whistle currently under discussion is far too fragile for such practices, with walls of only half a mm thick. But it would do well in hitting the felt targets the Manchus describe, with an arrow catching net behind them. It is also very close to the Qianlong emperor's own arrow made for this purpose, dimensionally accurate up to a few millimeters.

-Peter

[Bede]

Peter,
There might be some connection to Jurchen arrows. I know that whistlers with big thing broadheads were used to hunt hares from horseback because of the depiction of Qianlong doing it accompanied by his guards.

The Grayson arrows are from the 1920's so constructional details would have changed.

Jack's idea about sur target arrows being developed as blunts for shooting small animals is interesting. The Manchus had a taboo about marmots, I remember reading. However, they are not the only small animals with valuable fur. The Manchus hunted in the forest too.

[Stephen Selby]

One point, Peter. Whatever the whistle is made of, you must decide that it is NOT elephant ivory, otherwise you'll find your collection raided. Europe bureaucracy has gone mad over even the slightest trace of ancient ivory.

Your whistle is made from boring bone.

[Peter Dekker]

Peter,
There might be some connection to Jurchen arrows. I know that whistlers with big thing broadheads were used to hunt hares from horseback because of the depiction of Qianlong doing it accompanied by his guards.

You are probably referring to the painting by Castiglione in the Palace Museum collection. Those arrows are also listed in the Imperial Regulations and were called shao pi jian or "Whistling Broadhead Arrow". There are numerous sets of these arrows in the Palace Museum depot and I've also been able to examine one up close in a private collection in Beijing. According to the regulations, they were universal arrows used to shoot a number of types of game, among which hare, deer, fox and stag.

For hunting one type of game exclusively, there was usually a special arrow for a certain animal. But apparently when not knowing what one would encounter, these more universal arrows would be carried. The use of Mongoloid arrows on rocky terrain and native Jurchen designs by the Manchus on grassy terrain further exemplifies their diversity of arrows and their purposes. Not surprising, for a people that did not develop any agriculture until the 16th century and primarily lived off hunting before that time.

The Manchus had a taboo about marmots, I remember reading. However, they are not the only small animals with valuable fur. The Manchus hunted in the forest too.

I didn't know about the Marmot taboo, do you recall any source or reason? I do know that some groups didn't like to shoot dogs because there was a connnection with Nurhaci. They did hunt a lot of fur animals, the Jurchen economy largely relied on fur trade with Russians, Mongols, Chinese and Koreans in the early days of Nurhaci.

Stephen,
I'll remember that! Even better, lets assume that the arrow was made of plastic. I know that my government is rather fussy about these things but I thought that antique ivory was no problem. I may be mistaken though, it wouldn't surprise me at all that they have further limited our freedom recently.

[Bede]

I think I saw the marmot prohibition in a collection of the letters of Kangxi. It might have been in a footnote. There was some reference once to the possibility that the Manchus connected the marmots with the Black Plague.

[Orda Khan]

There was some reference once to the possibility that the Manchus connected the marmots with the Black Plague.

I've read the same about marmots (not about Manchu) yet this did not stop Mongols from hunting them.

[Bede]

Apparently at the time, there was some dispute about who was being sensible about what to hunt.

The early Manchu emperors often had Mongol relatives so I suppose you would have to be careful what you said while hunting.

[Stephen Selby]

In North Asia marmots are shot and cooked baked in clay. Because they eat a lot of wormwood, they have strongly-flavoured flesh which is thought to be medicinal. I've eaten them. They're ok - but if you can get a McDonald's, go for that instead.

In that last 100 years they they have been identified as a vector of bubonic plague, so eating them is no longer favoured.

S

[Orda Khan]

I've eaten them. They're ok - but if you can get a McDonald's, go for that instead.

That bad eh?!

[jack farrell]

I want to ask about arrow points. As this has little to do with the original topic, I will start a new thread about Asian arrow points under hardware. -j-

[Stephen Selby]

Yeah, the discussion on McMarmots was pushing irrelevance to the limit.

[Peter Dekker]

Yeah, the discussion on McMarmots was pushing irrelevance to the limit.

With such a lengthy discussion on an object from that region we were just bound to end up with the local cuisine sooner or later..

I can imagine a burger being more tasty. I tried nearly anything in China, but hardly anything of the stranger food became a favorite!

-Peter

[JJ]

I?m just stumbling over this old thread looking for dimensions of Manchu arrows...

Peters question regarding the material of the arrow head seems not to have been solved yet. A bangle comes to my mind that I once (about 18 years ago) bought for a girl friend in Morocco. This was a massive piece of bone and the grain resembled closely this whistling arrowhead, if I remember correctly. It was made from camel bone.

Best regards, JJ

[Bede]

Camel bone was used extensively in Central Asia because of its strength and good carving features. It could also be dyed or painted.

[Peter Dekker]

That's interesting, I had not thought of camel bone before it is plausible indeed. I've looked up some pics on the net and on some the grain resembles something as seen on the whistle head.


JJ, Manchu arrows were often 90 - 110 cm in length depending on the type of arrow, with most antique examples I've personally seen ranging somewhere between 90-100 cm. Some shafts are rather straight while others (most) have a complex shaft geometry usually consisting of a tapered end in front and a "waist" right before a nock that usually flares out to a wide end of slightly oval cross-section. Complex enough to drive most shaft-suppliers nuts!

Let me know what type of arrow you want specifics of, military, hunting, target, whistling, etc. I'll see whether I've got the numbers here. Apart from measurements of actual arrows I also have official period regulations on some 100 different arrows but unfortunately they only mention length and materials and not the small details of tapering.

You can PM me, or perhaps a separate thread on Manchu arrows is in order.

-Peter