New to Asian archery, where to start?

David_Hurst · Post by **David_Hurst** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 1:07 am

Hello. I found this site after searching the internet for information on the Asiatic archery traditions, and I have an interest in learning the use of these weapons. I am a lifelong longbow shooter, and I am wondering if anyone can suggest a good value in a bow that would be suitable for a beginner? Not looking for a cheapie, but certainly not the highest end bow either, obviously.

Thanks in advance,

David

Stephen Selby · Post by **Stephen Selby** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 3:20 am

Welcome! Great to have you aboard.

There are lots of bow models to chose from. As a longbowman, I suggest that you go for a larger bow (e.g. Chinese, Mongolian or Hun) that you can feel 'inside of', rather than some of the smaller ones (e.g. Turkish, Korean).

Secondly, while you are learning, draw below your weight. Chose your fist Asiatic bow at around 10 pounds below your longbow draw weight. It's a different technique and different muscles. Use good stiff 32" aluminium arrows with a decent weight.

For durability and a wide range at moderate price, I still think Grozer offers the best range. But Kassai, and others are also good quality. Kassai does a number of good, large bows.

S

David_Hurst · Post by **David_Hurst** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:29 am

Thanks Stephen,

I have looked at some of the bows from those sources. Also, I would like to avoid aluminum. I absolutely detest those things, and won't allow them on my property, let alone in my quiver.

I'm skilled at making my own arrows and shafting, so I think I could come up with some good wood arrows

David_Hurst · Post by **David_Hurst** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 5:42 am

BTW, does Grozer have a U.S. distributer?

Orda Khan · Post by **Orda Khan** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 8:37 am

David_Hurst wrote:I absolutely detest those things, and won't allow them on my property, let alone in my quiver.

A man after my own heart, glad I am not the only one.

You do not mention your intended style, will you be using thumbdraw or Mediterranean and what is your draw length? Some of Grozers bows stack at longer draw lengths and for some unknown reason he has changed the design of a lot of his base models, some of them are really ugly. Kassai's Hunnic models especially, offer a decent draw length and are very stable.
This site www.hunarchery.com offers a large range from various bowyers. I believe www.horsebows.com is an American distributer but the price mark-up is fairly big.

David_Hurst · Post by **David_Hurst** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 2:25 pm

I would like to learning the shooting with a thumb ring, as it is what these bows are designed for. I don't know what my draw is with a ring, but my draw using a Mediterranean hold/loose is 29 1/2". I gather that my draw with a ring would be some 2" or so longer, give or take? I typically shoot bows from 75 to 90#, so to start with the new technique a bow of 60# would be a good choice, am I correct?

robno · Post by **robno** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 1:40 am

These are my experiences with transition from one style to the other, maybe they could be useful:
1. For testing what weight would work for you, take one of your current bows, put a thick piece of leather (or whatever, really) around the string and pull back a few times, take break, pull back a few more, etc, just to test how your muscles feel after a while. Do your estimate based on that.

2. When you then eventually have your bow, you can use the Turkish style of thumb-realease (some examples of this has graciously been provided by members of this forum on YouTube) which is shorter than the Mongolian, Korean, etc. In fact, the first couple of shots could even be pulled really short, about up to the shoulder of your bowarm just to see and feel the reaction of the arrows. Again, this - the Turkish draw - is to make your arm and hand more used to this type of draw, and you will probably not need to use it for more than a couple of hundred arrows before you get comfortable. NOTE: The longer you've used finger-release, the longer the shift takes, I assume. Or it's just me.

3. Proceed to a longer draw.

David_Hurst · Post by **David_Hurst** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 2:59 am

Robno, thanks for your advice!

Orda Khan · Post by **Orda Khan** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 8:12 am

David_Hurst wrote:I would like to learning the shooting with a thumb ring, as it is what these bows are designed for. I don't know what my draw is with a ring, but my draw using a Mediterranean hold/loose is 29 1/2". I gather that my draw with a ring would be some 2" or so longer, give or take? I typically shoot bows from 75 to 90#, so to start with the new technique a bow of 60# would be a good choice, am I correct?

Well the use of thumb rings is a moot point with some of these bows, there is no recorded evidence that Huns used them, for example. The Sassanid draw again, did not feature a thumb ring so there is no rule of thumb (pardon the pun

)
I agree with robno, the transition may take some time.

David_Hurst · Post by **David_Hurst** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 2:30 pm

Interesting. I was under the impression that a thumb ring was the norm with such bows. Shows what I know

David_Hurst · Post by **David_Hurst** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 9:45 pm

Which leads me to my next question. What traditions definitely used the thumb ring?

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 10:53 pm

Thumb rings were known in Shang dynasty China in the second millenium BCE. However, even in China, due to the diversity of cultures, other techniques were used. There is strong textual evidence that the Turks used the thumb ring and brought it west, possibly as early as the time of the Avars. Some Turkish groups did not adopt the rings though until much later. Muslim writers and Byzantine writers both wrote about thumb ring use. In the Islamic world it became the general technique. The Byzantines had an either/or attitude to its use.

Separately in the early centuries of this era a group of people developed thumb rings in Nubia and there is an African tradition of release aids that is only becoming known now.

Groups that did not use the thumb ring, but did use the composite bows, include the Scythians, the Hungarians, the early Sassanid Persians, the Xiongnu and Huns. There is still some debate about early Mesopotamian civilisations and ancient Egypt. Aside from the doubtfully dated Dura Europus ring, the main arguments are based on art which are largely not easily judged due to the conventional nature of the medium. You will find several different opinions on this forum.

robno · Post by **robno** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 11:03 pm

As I don't want to make an advertisement for a site whose reputation I cannot verify, I will only say that if you search for combination of "rome" and "thumb ring" you find a site where they sell ancient Roman thumb rings.

Can the Roman usage be verified? If so, from what century? Where was the inspiration from?

Stephen Selby · Post by **Stephen Selby** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 3:39 am

Just so there's no misunderstanding, it's perfectly ok to do a thumb draw without a ring, just as you can do a 'Mediterranean draw' without a finger tab if you want. So discussion of 'not using a thumbring' doesn't mean the same a 'not using the thumb to draw'.

S

Orda Khan · Post by **Orda Khan** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 9:03 am

Precisely. There is always the possibility that thumb rings were in use in the cultures we have ommitted. Lack of findings need not necessarily point to a different technique, though I am sceptical about this theory.It seems far more likely they used a different method to draw. To the best of my knowledge, the earliest findings in and around eastern Europe are dated to circa 7th C, which would suggest the Avars.
I remember reading about Roman findings at out posts in Britain which would be 5th C at the latest but I am not convinced.

As an aside, the argument that thumb rings are 'release aids' still goes on in archery circles here in the UK. Thumb ring = release aid = archer must enter compound unlimited class....it's totally nuts.