Hornbow performance

Alan Flashing · Post by **Alan Flashing** » Sun Jul 20, 2008 9:59 pm

I have been looking at the fine work of Lukas Novotny and am very interested in getting one in hopefully the not too distant future.
The bow styles that I have been looking at are the Crab , Crimean , and the Turkish.
I was wondering if any of you have some thoughts on these different style hornbows how they perform as compared to each other. Their shooting style feel and so forth. I am new to this style of archery and would greatly appreciate any guidance, information or opinions from those of you with more knowledge than I.
Best regards,
Alan

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Sun Jul 20, 2008 10:35 pm

Alan,
Before you compare bows, you have to ask yourself what type of shooting you want to do with it. The main uses nowadays are target, hunting and flight. A target bow needs to be regular in its performance and easy enough to shoot all day. A hunting bow needs accuracy and the power to shoot your hunting arrows. In flight shooting, you need a bow that is fast with light arrows. Accuracy and comfort are not that important.

Alan Flashing · Post by **Alan Flashing** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 12:45 am

Bede,
Thanx for the reply. I would be using the bow for target & hunting for the most part and would very much like to become involved with mounted archery.
I am also interested in long distance shooting at targets. Would be great if one bow would be able to perform in these three categories.
I have been involved in archery on and off most of my life and have always wanted to become involved with Asian hornbows but did not know where to go. So very glad to find this site and the trove of knowledge that it offers.
All the best,
Alan

Adam Karpowicz · Post by **Adam Karpowicz** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 9:55 am

Alan

Bow available for sale now are not usually faithful replicas of old bow styles. They are either hybrids or inventions. In this situation, I suggest to look at the overall length of bows as it relates to your draw length. For example true Turkish short bows will not be comfortable to shoot, if your draw length is more than 27-28 inches unless made longer. Even the Turks themselves would use a "loose fit" longer bow for the ease of drawing. Other types may suit you better. Generally a 30in draw requires a min. 50in ntn hornbow bow for target shooting, maybe a little shorter for hunting. If your draw length is over 32in, a longer Crim-Tatar or Mongolian/Manchu will be better. This applies to hornbows, but for modern glass replicas it may be safer to pick even longer bows. On the other hand, if you are strong, a shorter, stacking bow may not bother you too much.

Adam

jiao · Post by **jiao** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 2:30 pm

adam

it will mean in this world has no a bowyer can make a hornbow 50in long but over 32in draw and draw weight 80pound?
http://198.170.108.27/phpBB2/images/ava ... 5d2270.gif
it seemed some pictures show han dynasty archer over 32in draw

Alan Flashing · Post by **Alan Flashing** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 6:31 pm

Adam,
thank you very much for your advice. I draw 271/2 ' with my 80# Hill style longbow. Not sure what my draw length will be with a thumb ring. How much draw length does one usually gain switching from a split finger to a thumb ring? In a horn bow what style would you recommend? I am really drawn to the crab style, as well as the Turkish and to a lesser degree the Crimean. I am just getting somewhat conversant with the different types of horn bows. Can you suggest how that I may become better educated in the different styles of horn bows, perchance a good reference book?
Do you have an opinion on the best combination of performance and stability?
I greatly appreciate this input from all.
All the best,
Alan

M Hardman · Post by **M Hardman** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 10:17 pm

Alan,

Try http://anthromuseum.missouri.edu/grayson/grayson.shtml
Although only pictures, it gives you a good feel for some of the different hornbow cultures. There is also much in the Atarn archives (go to atarn.org, and look under contents guide)
If you want to see Turkish/Ottoman styles go to http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=adyona&p=r
If you hunt around on Youtube you will also find Yokhua shooting one of his hornbows in a Chinese style.
Look here,
http://www.koreanarchery.org/WTAF/
and you will see a huge variety of bows and styles

Enjoy

Adam Karpowicz · Post by **Adam Karpowicz** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:03 am

Alan:

Your draw length with the ring will depend on the style you choose: thumb to the jaw, to the ear, or to the shoulder. At this point, it may be best to pick a non-stacking, light-weight bow of any kind and try the different styles with a ring to see what suits you. Buying now a bow of a particular type may be a waste of money, especially if a hornbow. I learned the thumb draw with a cheap solid glass kids bow which I cut down to increase the weight. Since I chose the Turkish method, I now draw 28in (I drew 26in with 3-fingers before). Mughal bow would be drawn to around 28-29in, but the Crim-Tatar 32-34in. To avoid stability issues, a beginner should stay away from true hornbows, but rather get a glass replica. I am sure others at this forum who teach the technique are better qualified to answer your question.

Jiao - making a 50in hornbow 80lb at 32in draw is not a problem. Such bow may not be however pleasant enough to use for all-day target shooting.

Adam

Alan Flashing · Post by **Alan Flashing** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 6:47 pm

Adam , Once again thanx for this much needed information. I am indeed looking for a bow to learn with before I move up to a horn bow.
Do you have any thoughts as to the feel and performance of the three types of bows/draw methods that we are discussing? I am just trying to wrap my mind around this whole thing and get a feel for the most likely direction that I am heading.
When you speak of stability issues , what is it that you refer to , limb twisting and so forth? Please elaborate if you will.
Regards,
Alan

Adam Karpowicz · Post by **Adam Karpowicz** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 11:33 pm

Alan:

Re stability: the hornbows may require adjustments to correct for twist and for the balance of limbs. Every person has slightly different style of release and grip hold, unpredictable by the bowyer, so this is normal. Such corrections can only be made by the archer himself, unless the bowyer is close by to help. This is not a big deal with a little practice, but can be discouraging for a beginner.

As to performance: most well made bows will have fairly close performance with heavier arrows in the order of 8 or more grains of arrow mass per pound of draw weight. This range of arrow mass is common in target and hunting arrows. It means it is not going to be a difference big enough to bother worrying about. If one wants to shoot lighter arrows, such as for flight shooting, then short and lighter bow limbs become important, which leads to Turkish bows, or relatively short bows, but with a longer draw, such as Korean as the second choice.

Good luck

Adam

Alan Flashing · Post by **Alan Flashing** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 1:12 am

Adam,
Ah once again thank you for your explanation. Now the adjustment /balancing of the limbs sounds a bit less intimidating . Is this something that is regularly done at every stringing , or as an as needed correction when noticed?
As for arrow weigh I would venture that I would be shooting the target/hunting weight for the most part.
The crab style bow would this be considered a Moguhl style?
Regards,
Alan

Stephen Selby · Post by **Stephen Selby** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 4:04 am

Alan Flashing wrote:Adam,
Is this something that is regularly done at every stringing , or as an as needed correction when noticed? Alan

Alan, a hornbow normally needs adjustment before it is shot (every time) and often during shooting. There is an exception for old, heavy Manchu bows with broad limbs, which were very stable and might be left strung for long periods.

But no modern reproductions (that I am aware of) are made like that. Unfortunately, its the stringing/unstringing that gives rise to the need for adjustment. Some makers of hornbows will not even agree to sell to novice hornbow shooters. Others will give no guarantees on their bows.

Errors in shooting technique can cause hornbows to deform, as can inexpert stringing/unstringing. (e.g. 'step through' unstringing.)

Conclusion: you should learn to shoot in an Asian style (appropriate to the type of bow you plan to shoot) using a bomb-proof, low-cost bow first. Then when you plan to buy a horn bow, you should discuss with the bowyer and get directions on adjustment and maintenance direct from the horse's mouth. If for example, you planned to shoot a Korean hornbow and you did not follow this advice, you would inevitably lose a lot of money (and maybe get hurt in the process).

S

Alan Flashing · Post by **Alan Flashing** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:18 am

Thank you Stephen,
A sobering thought to say the least. Just trying to figure out the direction that I think that I wish to go and try to buy something in a Similar style to learn on. I do know that I wish to use it in mounted archery as well, so length would be a factor.
At this point that all I have to work on is my feeling for the shape or profile that I see in a bow , and see if it is suited to the style of shooting I intend to pursue. I guess what I was looking for was shooting impressions of these different types of bows from those of you who have shot them.
I can use all the information I can get to make an informed decision.
Regards,
Alan

Stephen Selby · Post by **Stephen Selby** » Thu Jul 24, 2008 1:32 am

Alan,

My favourite hornbow for horseback shooting is a Hungarian-style bow from Grozer. It is very stable and novice-friendly. It also has good resistance to damp and higher temperatures (although inevitably it softens when warm.) Grozer designed it to be tough and stable above all else - a sort of 'my first hornbow'.

However, I still recommend learning the technique and talking to the bowyer, as per my last post. Ity's like buying those high-end radio controlled model planes. Really

but an expensive way to learn the sport...

S

Alan Flashing · Post by **Alan Flashing** » Thu Jul 24, 2008 2:27 am

Hello Stephen,
As always thanx for your appreciated input. Looking at Grozers Hungarian style bow, which model are you referring to The laminated horn bow or one of his other laminated bows like the TRH. Of his different lay ups which one do you feel performs the best? Is the most stable?
I am slowly taking all this in, so much to learn. I am not new to archery just to the Asian bows and so forth.
Regards,
Alan

Hornbow performance

Hornbow performance

stabilty

Re: stabilty

Grozer bows