Hornbow performance

[Bede]

Alan,
Regarding your interest in crab bows, don't think there are too many around that are performing as well as they might. Because most bowyers concentrated on the more well known bow types, that is where their expertise has been developed.

Both Adam and Stephen's advice is excellent. You need to get a feel for the shooting style before you select a horn composite bow. Also consider that it always easier to practise with a longer bow than a shorter bow and the same goes for lighter weight.

The Turks always started their practice with a light bow, built their muscle memory with it and then moved on to heavier bows to build their strength.

[Alan Flashing]

Bede, Sound advice. I was just looking at a photo of Lucas Novotny shooting one of his Crab bows... what a lovely profile at full draw. This is what started me looking at the Crab/Moguhl style bows. I think that just to start I will take Adam's advice and get a fiberglass bow to start using the thumb ring while I figure out my first Asian bow ,but would still like to have a nice bow to start with. Then at least I can take my time with the whole horn bow decision.
Alan

[Stephen Selby]

Hello Stephen,
As always thanx for your appreciated input. Looking at Grozers Hungarian style bow, which model are you referring to The laminated horn bow or one of his other laminated bows like the TRH. Of his different lay ups which one do you feel performs the best? Is the most stable?
I am slowly taking all this in, so much to learn. I am not new to archery just to the Asian bows and so forth.
Regards,
Alan

It would be the Hungarian Extra III model - one of these -

[Redhorse]

I think a normal guy should be able to draw his kilo weight in lb. If he is 80kg he should draw 80 lb. And thats a normal person with normal health. With practice it shall raise more.
On short bows the thumb draw gives less finger pinch then three finger draw gives. The handle on back gives a inch more draw length but on a longer bow the handle can be on belly side for the opposite, you need to have the bows longer from your anchor point to get bend in limbs.
Finally it's the arrow speed that counts. 200+ fps is nice to have from horseback, less and the flying time of arrow is to long.
Training with weak bows is over rated.
I must add that I shoot only 65lb bows and my weight is 78kg but I can handle bows at 80 lb weight.

[Alan Flashing]

Stephen,
Thanx for the clarification.

Redhorse,
Thanx for your input as well, I too am an enthusiast of the heavy draw weight bow. I weigh around 77 kilos and shoot a 36+ kilo longbow(80#).
I would strive to shoot the same in an Asian bow on foot or mounted.
I see that you are from Sweden. I am an artist blacksmith and did some of my journeyman ship work in Germany and Sweden .
While in Sweden I lived near Svenshogen and worked with a master smith named Berth Johansson.
Alan

[Jos?Dom]

I found this thread very useful. I feel in a similar situation than Alan, the difference is that I have years in archery and also I have experience with the thumb ring and cheap glass bows. I feel like I'm ready to graduate to a hornbow. I'm considering a short Turkish bow or a longer Crimean Tartar.
I'm also worried about the care and maintenance.

[Stephen Selby]

I'm also worried about the care and maintenance.

It's not something you need to worry about: it's just that you need to know that it has to happen and find out how to do it properly. It's no different from having a nice violin: you can't just play it and ignore the maintenance.

[Alan Flashing]

Yes it all seems to make scene These are fine tuned instruments of living material, not to be used lightly and carelessly tossed aside.
It is just sometimes the talk of the associated care can be a tad daunting.
But I think not enough to deter me.
Alan

[Orda Khan]

There are many things to consider before parting with a sizeable chunk of hard earned cash.
Here in Wales it feels like it has rained for two years, the term 'global warming' has been replaced with 'environment change', we just had a brief taste of what summer should feel like - three hot sunny days...24 degrees C . This morning (now I have chance to work on my bow) it rains. Again!!!
I use my bow for Field Archery, it's a Kassai Hun, with leather covering the limbs. Even with glass fibre limbs, I am loathed to use it in the rain; we all know how wet leather goes when it dries. After paying to participate, the weather takes a turn for the worse and you have to decide ... Nowadays, I rub vaseline over the leather and it does a good job. I recently bought my wife a Falcon 1 model, laminated Hun which only requires a wipe down at the end of the day.
With an expensive hornbow I would have a problem, it would be mainly used in our 18m indoor range. Too much expense for too little use , that is why I am building my own. Imagine ruining any of the beautiful bows we see posted by ATARNos.

[Redhorse]

I did some shooting from my wifes PRE horse. The bow is about 70 lb and more depending how long I draw. At 200 fps the arrow hit with almost no side drift in my arena. The light was not enough for pictures in gallop.
This was my 3 years sons first shooting from horseback. And he got problem with the length of the bow, 37". I can handle 58" but the 48" hornbow is much easier to use. On my horse I can have the quiver on left side , he has the mane to the right side. But not on this horse, mane the left side. So I have the arrows in my boots. I prefer left side on horseback and right side on ground.

[robno]

Again, it comes down to a question on what you use the bow for and how much. With all respect to Redhorse, I would personally not recommend anyone 70+ lbs on horseback if they intend to compete in it:
A couple of arrows will work fine, but for several runs in Hungarian-style competition (9 runs usually; I hear Die Steppenreiter in Germany are changing to 6 next year) aiming at shooting 6-10 arrows in 18 seconds at a reasonably normal draw will cause damage to your arms or shoulders in the long run.

It's not the weight itself, it's the fact that you draw and loose so quickly. Not to mention that any handschock present in the bow will feel stronger if you hold a bunch of arrows in your bowhand, Kassai-style, thereby adding the risk of injury to your wrist.

However, that type of competition is not the only type around, and I can certainly see a stronger bow being easy to use for Korean track (with 1, 2 or 5 targets shot from side), Mogu and whatever that Turkish thing with the target on a pole is called.

Though perhaps a too strong bow may be dangerous in Mogu: Even with blunted tips, the damage to the horse dragging the target may be severe if it bounces somehow or even worse if missing target and hitting straight on that horse's legs.

But this feels more like a discussion for the Horseback Archery topic on this forum

Back to question of weights:
There is still reason to hold back early on, if you have the money to buy a cheaper one which you may later use to lend out to friends, other family members or whatever it may be and then - once you have really gotten a feel for what differences there are between bowtypes, especially if changing to thumbdraw - go for a real piece.

Right now I only have pretty cheap bows (ranging between 150-255 ?) in the following weights (measured at 28 of course) and drawlengths:
42#, 29" draw
45#, 34" draw
53#, 32" draw

I use them for practising different techniques - the shortest for turkish style with the short follow-through, and the others for both fast-shooting and Asian draw and follow-through - and I would personally say that drawing the 45 (Gr?zer Mongolian) to my natural drawlength (at chestheight that is) of 32 feels much like drawing an ELB at about 60 to the same point.

[mongolianarcher]

I use them for practising different techniques - the shortest for turkish style with the short follow-through, and the others for both fast-shooting and Asian draw and follow-through - and I would personally say that drawing the 45 (Gr?zer Mongolian) to my natural drawlength (at chestheight that is) of 32 feels much like drawing an ELB at about 60 to the same point.

Can you elaborate on this because I dont understand what you mean by this paragraph. Including the last sentence.

[Bede]

The target on the pole is kabak shooting.

Modern horse back archery is a form of target archery and should be treated similarly. What is the advantage of a heavy bow? It gives greater penetration and greater range if it is efficient. You do not need these features in modern horseback archery. You are shooting at short range and at soft targets. They can be disadvantages if you miss. The arrows are scattered over the countryside or penetrate deeply into posts and other objects.

However, if you take up penetration shooting, like the Turkish zarb/darb shooting, you need the heaviest bow you can shoot comfortably. You need weight for penetration and comfort to make sure you get a smooth release to insure the arrow strikes at ninety degrees to the surface of the target (usually a piece of metal).

Heavy bows pull the string off the thumb or fingers more positively and hides poor shooting technique. Lack of techniques causes you to tire more quickly, shoot inconsistently and possibly injure yourself or the bow. Any tradition that involved training for war concentrated on technique because mistakes and injuries could prove fatal in battle.

There is a mounted archery target that requires a heavy bow and a super robust arrow and that is qighaj shooting where you shoot at a hard object on the ground as you gallop past. The ordinary version used a mound of earth, but there are illustrations of shields being used as the target. Many heavy amaji arrows are designed for this sport as well as shooting down from walls on armoured enemies.

It is easier for the archer to shoot the bow he or she is familiar with, but it is sometimes better to use the bow most suitable for the exercise.