Photo of a Subeshi bow

Andrew Hall · Post by **Andrew Hall** » Mon Aug 25, 2008 2:39 pm

There is a photo of one of the Subeshi / Subexi bows on this site:
http://www.zum.de/Faecher/G/BW/Landesku ... _bogen.htm
I think the bow is from cemetery III grave 2 and the arrows from cemetery I grave 27.

This site covers a recent exhibition of Silk Road finds in Germany "Urspr?nge der Seidenstra?e". There is an exhibition catalogue of the same name (ISBN 380622160X) which has photos of this bow, a goritus from the same site and some decorated shafts from Loulan. The photos in the book are not huge but are of high quality.

Andrew

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Tue Aug 26, 2008 12:44 am

Andrew,
I have recently rediscovered some drawings Stephen Selby sent we when I wrote my original article on Xinjiang Scythian-style bows. I intend to put together another paper on this information more directed at how they were constructed. Stephen had made very detailed observations of both construction and cross sections. I used them for my drawings but never fully exploited the detail.

I will talk to him soon about what he thinks of the project.

yokhua · Post by **yokhua** » Tue Aug 26, 2008 5:41 am

Hello Bade;
Could you give me the detail of its profile and construction as well. I like the bow so much and wanted to build a exact replica. Will build two, one for you,one for me.... How about that

Jang,yuhua

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:31 am

That sounds like an offer I can't refuse. You will have to interpret the dimensions because I believe Stephen looked at two bows at least. Even with his accurate observations, I am not entirely sure where the bow was held.

Will you be going to WTAF in Korea? I shall be there and can bring some drawings.

Stephen Selby · Post by **Stephen Selby** » Tue Aug 26, 2008 9:46 am

Yokhua: I have a broken one here. Looking at the detail, it will drive you mad to make one in the authentic manner: they were made up of a mosaic of small pieces.

Adam Karpowicz · Post by **Adam Karpowicz** » Tue Aug 26, 2008 10:00 am

Is this the one? I still need to finish tillering it.

Adam

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Tue Aug 26, 2008 2:29 pm

Stephen,
I still haven't figured out what you meant by what you drew for the grip section. Was the side-by-side three part core continuous through the grip? Was the horn central strip spliced too?

Andrew Hall · Post by **Andrew Hall** » Wed Aug 27, 2008 5:55 pm

Stephen,
I would be interested in finding out more on the structure of these bows, I find the design intriguing. Does the structure in the centre match the small cross-section diagram I found and posted details of some while ago?

Is your broken bow one of the Yanghai finds? (The site is mentioned and some finds shown in Urspr?nge der Seidenstra?e, but no bow illustrations or details).

Andrew

Orda Khan · Post by **Orda Khan** » Wed Aug 27, 2008 10:18 pm

Adam,
That bow is stunning, could you give us a few details about it please?

Adam Karpowicz · Post by **Adam Karpowicz** » Thu Aug 28, 2008 9:21 am

Orda:

The bow is made according to the drawings and dimensions by Stephen - many pieces plus vertical horn strips in the limbs. I hope to finish it soon, but may not be successful in estimating the draw weight, since there are certain issues with limb tracking. Anyway, I now have a good idea how the bows were made.

The primordial shape of these bows is indeed fascinating.

Adam

Stephen Selby · Post by **Stephen Selby** » Thu Aug 28, 2008 12:26 pm

Bede wrote:Stephen,
I still haven't figured out what you meant by what you drew for the grip section. Was the side-by-side three part core continuous through the grip? Was the horn central strip spliced too?

It's really difficult to answer. We are most of us used to the idea of a hornbow with a wood or bamboo core, horn belly and sinew back. This Subeixi bow is radically different. It has a horn core with wood to the left and right. The horn does not extend to the 'siyahs' (I use the word; but I really mean 'non-working tips.') All the reconstructions I have seen except Adam's just assumed the standard structure core-belly-back, and were therefore way off beam.

Also, although I went over dozens of these bows, in all cases the grips were the best-preserved parts, meaning that the internal structure is not visible. The grip has a stout sinew binding with an optional birchbark layer. Sometimes there is a wood face on the back.

My estimation is that the horn core continues through the grip; but it is not necessarily a single strip of horn. Throughout the bow, the horn and wood form a symmetrical mosaic which follows a general design, but varies slightly from bow to bow.

Another point - I talk of a 'grip'; but I'm not certain where the bow was gripped at all. The whole centre section looks too uncomfortable to hold at full draw, assuming that these bow were quite heavy.

S

jack farrell · Post by **jack farrell** » Thu Aug 28, 2008 2:18 pm

Stephen; What would be a dimension mid limb and what would be its shape? -j-

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Fri Aug 29, 2008 4:10 am

Stephen,
If the Classical pictures of the Western form of this bow are correct, the centre of the setback is not the grip which is a very strange concept. As a modern archer, my unconscious prejudice is to "read' this a something like a Korea bow in use, but it certainly isn't. Because of the asymmetric design of the limbs, I wonder if it was held on the forward leaning section of the limb above the setback?

Adam might have an idea on this: to me the structure looks as if it was originally a side by side three section core with a sinew back and binding that was reinforced at some time by adding belly strips of horn. The nature of one of the bows suggests that adding reinforcing strips of wood or horn was a common idea.

I felt when I first saw the drawings that the centre section was stiffer than one would expect if it was meant to work very much. On the other hand the tips were very shallow in section.

M Hardman · Post by **M Hardman** » Fri Aug 29, 2008 10:21 am

Indeed, it could be held non centrally, perhaps like a Yumi, or the reverse. Though why would there be an extra curve?
Perhaps though the bow could be asymmetric due to a technique?

If you watch Murat ?zveri shooting on one of the youtube videos you see he places the heel of his hand on the grip, and thus pushes the lower limb out further. I myself push the top limb out further by twisting forwards with my three lower fingers. This has the effect of bending the bow more in each case.

Maybe the archers using this bow excessively twisted the grip forwards (or backwards), thus leveling the asymmetry. Is there any artwork that accompanies this bow design showing its use?

I look forward to seeing it finished.

Regards

jak · Post by **jak** » Fri Aug 29, 2008 7:07 pm

I have a subeshi hornbow made by lukas Novotny with the Selby's measurements :

I use it for horseback archery:you can see pics on my blog

http://jakpradere.blogspot.com/

with 65# at 28" but I use more often around 25" so 50#

I put one arrow on the string and 5 arrows with the bow in my bowhand