Scythian Bows Article

Stephen Selby · Post by **Stephen Selby** » Sat Jan 08, 2011 2:15 pm

A new article co-authored by me and Adam Karpowicz, which is published in the current issue of the Journal of the Society of Archer Antiquaries, is available to read/download here:

http://www.atarn.org/chinese/Yanghai/Sc ... _ATARN.pdf

Kviljo · Post by **Kviljo** » Sat Jan 08, 2011 2:40 pm

Fantastic! It's very generous to publish it here at Atarn too. This will be great reading for tonight.

Orda Khan · Post by **Orda Khan** » Sat Jan 08, 2011 2:49 pm

Seconded!

Outlaw · Post by **Outlaw** » Sat Jan 08, 2011 2:56 pm

Much appreciated to both of you

jack farrell · Post by **jack farrell** » Sun Jan 09, 2011 2:44 pm

Nicely done article. Adam, I am always amazed by your bow building techniques/insight.

Many Egyptian bows have a horn core center strip and ridge along the belly. Any thoughts?

dragonman · Post by **dragonman** » Sun Jan 09, 2011 10:01 pm

Hi there, all. A very interesting article, thanks for posting. If Adam is reading? I would be very interested to hear about the performance of the replica?? Historicaly, amazing finds!! From a purely practical point of view though, with what I know about bow construction, these bows dont look like they should work too well. They appear very time consuming to construct in a way that their performance wouldnt justify??? This makes them very intriguing...
I'm sure(or, I hope), that these people wheren't in the habit of wasting their time and these bows must have worked well, I would be interested to hear others thoughts on why these bows where made this unusual (unusual to us) way. It seems an strange solution to the problem of constructing a bow?

Stephen Selby · Post by **Stephen Selby** » Mon Jan 10, 2011 2:06 am

I may be the only person to have shot with this bow!

I tried at 5 metres into a stack of cardboard after it had been kept braced with a bracing string for some four months in a warm climate. It was much too heavy for me to draw fully (I guess it would have drawn to around 80# at 28". ) It showed no sign of instability and drew smoothly to about 20" (my maximum draw on it) and was smooth and fast. I was gripping above centre.

JJ · Post by JJ » Mon Jan 10, 2011 10:39 am

Stephen, thank you very much for mposting the article!

Incredible work of Adam in reconstructing the bow. It is really very, very complicated. I don?t understand why the scythians went through such an effort for making the bows. The only explanation may lie in the fact that it was not possible to be done in another way (?) with the material and the tools available. I am sure they had metal saws, however... Maybe the problem was the extreme bend of the central section, so the use of a naturally grown bent piece was preferred. But why cutting it in two halves and glueing it together again ?

And I don?t exactly understand what is happening to the horn strip in the central section?

In the cross sections of the above image it is indicated that the central standing horn strip is running throughout the central section (cross sections above the sideview sketch, also in the apex of the central part). However in the detail view of the central section there is no vertical horn. It is indicated that this is the back view. Is this really the back view or rather a belly view? In the cross section beside it there is a horn strip in the center. The next section on the right shows wood-only construction.

In the reconstruction Adam Karpowicz builds the central area without horn strip.

Maybe Stephen can answer these questions:

a. Is the central horn strip running through the entire middle section or not?

b. If not, where do the horn strips end?

c. Are there additional wood overlays on the belly?

JJ

Adam Karpowicz · Post by **Adam Karpowicz** » Mon Jan 10, 2011 10:59 am

As to the Egyptian bows, if I remember correctly, there are two side strips of wood in the limbs with the horn belly in between. It may be that they did not have the horns of sufficient width for a stable (and strong) bow and this was the only solution for that? Narrow and thicker (the belly ridge) strip to yield a decent bow.

JJ - there is a drawing in the article and also look at the hand drawing by Stephen: there is no vertical horn in the grip. However, the belly horn is present over the grip as usual. The grip's core is composed of vertical laminations of wood.

Unless new data come to light, we see this bow as an "imitation" of ibex (much improved to serve as a bow), but not as a deliberate engineering attempt to make a perfect bow from the start. I think our modern approach does not always work so well in understanding the ancients (perhaps the TBB series is partly to blame....)

I wonder if it could be useful for people to have the article linked to the Central Asian section as well?

Adam

JJ · Post by JJ » Mon Jan 10, 2011 11:36 am

The Angular composite is the oldest type of composite bow and the ancestor of the Scythian bow, so the idea of the central narrow horn strip in the limbs seems inherited. I don?t know anything about the construction of the central section of the Angular composite. Perhaps they were constructed in a similar way? Does somebody have data on that? Jack, how did you reconstruct the handle of your angular composite reconstructions? For the stability in the strongly deflexed handle at least it seems logical to use a naturally grown piece of wood which should have a greater stiffness as a heat bend straight grown piece. If that was the case the handle construction method could have been inherited, too. Only the technique, not the shape, of course. In societies where tradtions change only very slowly, a logical explanation.

I highlighted the spot that confused me on Stephen?s drawing:

There?s vertical horn indicated in the cross section of the apex of the central curvature, but maybe it was in an early stage of inspecting the bow and later revised in the cross sections beneath the handle detail.

JJ

stiventiger · Post by **stiventiger** » Mon Jan 10, 2011 2:57 pm

Hi
Great Stephen:
you discovered and collect a lot of eastern archery culture,they are real treasure of human being.i am always appreciate what your have done

redhawk · Post by **redhawk** » Mon Jan 10, 2011 3:21 pm

Thanks for sharing, well done........
but Stephen has reported recently there are findings of Scythian horn- bows done in the usual way: horn-belly, wooden core, sinew backing........much easier to do........ The Yanghai bows are done according to the totemic meaning of the ibex- animal to the Yanghai-Scythians.

There are some more construction principles of Scythian bows. There is the Arzan- bow, the Olon kurin gol- bow...........some more will be excavated. I guess the term Scythian is as multifaceted as the term Native American.

Adam, any f/d?s, fps? I guess this bow is shooting by far worther than an Ottoman bow, cause the limbs have to go a longer way.

Michael

Michael

Adam Karpowicz · Post by **Adam Karpowicz** » Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:06 pm

I have nothing else on the bow, sorry. The bow represents one particular style of the Scythian bow and once other types are replicated, we will know more about these bows. A replica with no vertical horn should be easy to make, as well as the wood laminates.

BTW, the bow stacks - rapidly gains weight in the last inches of draw (not quite expected in a hornbow of this length). So the weight at 28 inches will be over 100lb.

Adam

jack farrell · Post by **jack farrell** » Tue Jan 11, 2011 12:58 am

JJ; There is complete information on only several of the Egyptian bows and a single piece grip section is not reported. A short riser strip was added to two bows and this is what I did. Because of a weakness in the grip, I twice also added a horn riser over the horn splice. The butt joint on the horn is not so effective because of the angle.

Keep in mind that there is no standardization of Egyptian manufacture, none at all. By Tut's time, in his collection, the familiar (more or less) layering of sinew wood and horn was the most common but others are radically different. You can see 'schools" of techniques. It has been one hundred years since anyone was allowed to handle these.

If there are five bends in a Scythian bow, then only three of them conform to the natural bends in Ibex. The design is a reaction to its Near Eastern ancestor. We can do this, you can't. We do this because this is who we are.

Michael; Scythians ARE like A. Indians. Superficially they resemble eachother but up close the differences are rich. I can imagine that Scythians main enemies were.........themselves.

Stephen Selby · Post by **Stephen Selby** » Tue Jan 11, 2011 2:38 am

JJ wrote: I highlighted the spot that confused me on Stephen?s drawing:

There?s vertical horn indicated in the cross section of the apex of the central curvature, but maybe it was in an early stage of inspecting the bow and later revised in the cross sections beneath the handle detail.
JJ

Let me try to clarify. First, please understand that I inspected many of these bows, and while the construction is generally the same, there is a certain degree of variation. In particular, the length and splicing positions of different fillets of wood and horn vary from bow to bow; although not too significantly.

Perhaps what you can't see clearly is that these bows, on the main working part of the limbs, have both a horn core and a horn belly. The horn belly is both narrower and more triangular in cross-section than we see on other varieties of horn bow.

Make sure you check out this set of drawings, too. They are clearer:

http://www.atarn.org/chinese/Yanghai/yanghai.htm