bows with bridges - when appeared?

Andrzej Abratowski · Post by **Andrzej Abratowski** » Tue Oct 18, 2005 3:09 pm

I don't remember if we discussed such problem, database of ATARnet is so big that some problems with finding information, even with search machine.

When and where appeared bows with siyahs lean so forward that the string is leaned against brigdes or upper part of siyah (Turk. bash)?

Andrzej

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Tue Oct 18, 2005 10:20 pm

Andrzej,
The earliest repesentation of a string bridge I could find was from the Edinburgh copy of the Jami at-Tavarikh of Rashid ed-Din painted in the first quarter of the 1300s. The artists in this work generally painted bows with straight siyahs, but that appears to be an artisitic convention that was being replaced.

In China in the Yuan, in paintings and woodblock prints, bows started to appear with slightly angled tips for the last third of the siyah. I have seen a painting believed to be from 900s showing nomads with a bow with the last part of the siyah angled forward. However, the angles are so slight that there is some subjectivity in the identification.

Stephen Selby · Post by **Stephen Selby** » Wed Oct 19, 2005 1:55 am

I may not have seen all the material that Bede has seen; but I don't feel that in China there's convincing evidence of string bridges until the Manchu bows came in. Ming used a Turkish style, and pre-Ming right back to Han used a northern 'Xiongnu' (for lack of a better word) style. Bows before the Han appear not to have used bridges either.

(Some explanations of the 'Rites of Zhou' account of bow-making refer to string bridges; but that may have been a misunderstanding influenced by later bow designs.)

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Wed Oct 19, 2005 2:06 am

Stephen,
I may not have been clear. I understood Andrzej to be using the term "string bridges" generically to refer to any string support. So I am including everything from Korean leather pads to the full sized Manchu pillow shaped antler ones.

There is one painting from China (which is said to be Ming, but the method of depiction the horse and some of the saddlery looks more like the Qing) showing a clear bone of antler string bridge on the bow. The painting is often identified as being of a Mongol, but the rider is wearing a turban and has one arm out of his upper garment in the Tibetan fashion.

I will get the details for you tonight.

Andrzej Abratowski · Post by **Andrzej Abratowski** » Wed Oct 19, 2005 1:45 pm

I understood Andrzej to be using the term "string bridges" generically to refer to any string support.

yes I ask about any bow design with string lying on bridge or upper part of siyah. Some Turkish bows had bridges and some not but a string was supported by bash
In Europe, Hungarian bows are described as a bow withaut any brigdes and Cumans, and other in steppe north of Balck Sea simmilar (I think)
And question is what was the way (and by who was used) of reflexed bows with supporting srtings?

Andrzej

Russ Mitchell · Post by **Russ Mitchell** » Wed Oct 19, 2005 6:24 pm

Hungarian historiography holds that the Cumans brought a bow that was different (and more powerful, though this could simply be a factor of literature or cultural preference), than the Hungarians had used. This is why I'm so interested in the "crab-shaped" bows that suddenly pop up in Hungary and the Balkans. It clearly seems to use a string bridge, though I am definitely the wrong person to describe whether that would be a first instance.

Stephen Selby · Post by **Stephen Selby** » Thu Oct 20, 2005 1:45 am

Would this count? It is Ming.

http://198.66.52.119/photo/showimg.php? ... an_155.gif

I think there were early north Indian bows like this, too. Here is someone reconstruction:

http://198.66.52.119/photo/showimg.php? ... -1_876.jpg

jack farrell · Post by **jack farrell** » Thu Oct 20, 2005 4:16 am

Don't forget Scythian and Neo-Hittite, 700 BC. -j-

Adam Karpowicz · Post by **Adam Karpowicz** » Thu Oct 20, 2005 9:51 am

Stephen:

The reconstruction in the link is a Turkish bow. It would not need string bridges, although some could have them. Crim-Tatar bows had bridges.

The crab bows did not have string bridges. The loop knots barely touched the base of tips in strung bows of this type.

Adam

Andrzej Abratowski · Post by **Andrzej Abratowski** » Thu Oct 20, 2005 10:03 pm

Scythian and Neo-Hittite, 700 BC

bows from wall decoration in palaces of Darius nad Artexerxes Memnon
yes scytian is interesting but later this bow was disappeared or maybe not?
going revers sach bows (bridges are not important)was known in Persia, India, Ottoman Turkey, Crimean kaganat. and the rest of Europe form Turks and Tatars?
And where is for example 13th century? Who have sach bows? Ossman Turks? Persia? India?
May be it will be god way going back.
Were have a Crimean Tatars own kind of bow from?
And a lot of question

Andrzej

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Fri Oct 21, 2005 1:51 am

I think by comparison withe bows from Xinjiang assume that Scythian bows had string grooves on the belly side of the recurve. Hittite and Assyrian bows did not have a recurve, but had the string in some cases run over the tip of the bow to a nocking point on the back (like a carved duck's head in the Assyrian bows).

The Persian infantry bows in the bas reliefs at Persepolis and on the glazed tiles from Susa show something that is half way between the Scythian and the Assyrian.

I have a question to Andrzej. I would normally only call something a string bridge if it was applied to the belly of the bow. I would not call the place where the string lands on the belly a string bridge if there was not structure there. Is that how you see it or ar you speaking about the area where the string knot lands in general?

Adam Karpowicz · Post by **Adam Karpowicz** » Fri Oct 21, 2005 3:42 pm

As I understand it, Andrzej asks about bows where the tips are far enough forward that the string (or rather the loops) have to contact the bow, with or without an added bridge. I presume he means the tips to be straight with the bends at the base.

Adam

Andrzej Abratowski · Post by **Andrzej Abratowski** » Fri Oct 21, 2005 10:55 pm

Yes, thank you Adam, my description was not clear.
I think about bows like Turkish (with or withaut bridges), crab or similar.

Andrzej